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  1. #151
    Sniffles
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    He certainly committed an evil act of killing innocent people.

  2. #152
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    Of course he killed innocent people and to you and me that would fall within the usual definition of evil. But to him a) they were not innocent but representative of a great evil - the Marxist Multiculturalist alliance (sic!) and b) killing a few innocents for the greater good is acceptable collateral damange. He even mentions how he likes his stepmother but has no problem accepting it if she would be killed in the attacks as well.

    What I mean to say is that this comes down to definitions of evil, the question of moral absolutes and the importance of intention vs action.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #153
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    That is a beautiful circular definition.

    But for what it's worth...his ideology is as alien to me as are his methods. I was merely trying to argue an academic point and have no intention of defending the guy, his methods or his ideas.
    I wouldnt suggest you where but lets not over intellectualise this, the guy killed defenceless children, seemed to have a good time doing it, it would be kind to describe him as insane, mad or otherwise mentally ill and you and others have discounted all those things already so what does that leave? Plain evil.

    I'm interested, especially since you're not the first to say so, why is it a circular argument and why is it important to you that it is defined as such?

  4. #154
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    What I mean to say is that this comes down to definitions of evil, the question of moral absolutes and the importance of intention vs action.
    Do you believe that certain acts are evil in of themselves, or is it just a matter of definition for the people involved?

    From my perspective, certain actions are evil in themselves, no matter the intention or the person's subjective viewpoint. Deliberately killing innocent people falls into this category.

  5. #155
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Of course he killed innocent people and to you and me that would fall within the usual definition of evil. But to him a) they were not innocent but representative of a great evil - the Marxist Multiculturalist alliance (sic!) and b) killing a few innocents for the greater good is acceptable collateral damange. He even mentions how he likes his stepmother but has no problem accepting it if she would be killed in the attacks as well.

    What I mean to say is that this comes down to definitions of evil, the question of moral absolutes and the importance of intention vs action.
    Well if you've discounted madness and dont consider his ideology legitimate then what other explanation is there other than evil intent and evil action?

    To me the whole ideological slant is rationalisation on a grand scale. Just about every criminal there is blames the victim or attributes their individual choices and their consequences to compelling external pressures.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wouldnt suggest you where but lets not over intellectualise this, the guy killed defenceless children, seemed to have a good time doing it, it would be kind to describe him as insane, mad or otherwise mentally ill and you and others have discounted all those things already so what does that leave? Plain evil.

    I'm interested, especially since you're not the first to say so, why is it a circular argument and why is it important to you that it is defined as such?
    If you define an evil person as somebody who does evil deeds, that is a circular(= useless) definition because we are still left wondering what evil means.

    As for the importance of definitions, maybe it's a Ti thing, but clear definitions are key to a meaningful exchange of information. If you say "he was evil" and I ask "what do you mean by evil?" , the answer "someboy who does evil things" does not help me. See below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Do you believe that certain acts are evil in of themselves, or is it just a matter of definition for the people involved?

    From my perspective, certain actions are evil in themselves, no matter the intention or the person's subjective viewpoint. Deliberately killing innocent people falls into this category.
    It is definitely "evil" by my standards and by society's usual standards (though I prefer the term immoral or unethical, evil is such a loaded archaic term with too much connotational baggage), but I do not believe that right and wrong exist a priori to a human/social definition. I do not believe in moral absolutes, if that was your question. At least not free from human context. I do however think that most humans were born with an instinct that tells them what is okay and what isn't and that on top of that we have a socially aquired canon of rules. The former is coming close to being universal (though that is hard to tell) the latter is neccessary for human survival but can vary from time to time and culture to culture.

    The key for me is this: Breivik didn't wake up one morning and said "I will do something that is morally wrong". And he did know the difference between right and wrong, only what was right to most of us was wrong to him and vice versa. If you ask him, he would probably describe himself as a highly moral person.

    To me, THAT is the scariest part of the whole event.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #157
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    Exclamation Infuriating Victor with a red herring

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    clear definitions are key to a meaningful exchange of information.
    Computers exhange information, we exchange metaphors.

    However there is a trap. Should Herring make the metaphor, 'I am a computer', then she thinks she exchanges information and infuriates Victor on the other side of the world, in another season, where his day is her night.

    So I ask you Red Herring, is it worthwhile to infuriate Victor, who, after all, is in the middle of winter - is it worthwhile infuriating Victor with an icy metaphor?

    But I can't help feeling that your metaphor is a red herring.

    On the other hand, Herring says, I am a computer, and Victor says, I am not a computer, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

  8. #158
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I highlighted the popular mistake in your post there.

    I read the news and it looks like the rest of the world could only be fed up with European national wars because they are busy fighting their own with each other.
    An anachronism.

    The rest of the world is fed up with past European national wars because they are now fighting their own with each other? You were reading the news. What you say does not make any sense.
    There are no European national wars going on at the present time, Larkey. Thanks to the EU.

    I said:
    Two world wars, and the Balkan wars. In each occasion, America saved Europe from itself.
    The facts about the European wars are not only accounted in the popular history books.
    It is all in the newspapers.
    Available in microfilm in every good library.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    An anachronism.

    The rest of the world is fed up with past European national wars because they are now fighting their own with each other? You were reading the news. What you say does not make any sense.
    There are no European national wars going on at the present time, Larkey. Thanks to the EU.

    I said:
    Two world wars, and the Balkan wars. In each occasion, America saved Europe from itself.
    The facts about the European wars are not only accounted in the popular history books.
    It is all in the newspapers.
    Available in microfilm in every good library.
    This post is a lot of gobbledegook, seriously, you got caught out in some anti-europeanism and realised your mistaken when I pointed out that the people who're tired of European wars arent much better themselves.

  10. #160
    Senior Member Rex's Avatar
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    The terror expert with 20 years of experience got fysically ill when he read the manifest.
    http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...cle4188851.ece

    Breivik was extremelly narssistic.. But the scientist guy says it seems like Breivik isn`t mad looking at the manifest.
    He was also extremely socially intelligent supposedly.

    btw does anyone got a linky to the manifest?
    Epic derailment:
    wierd memory work->Tamagochi->tetris->Starcraft2->thugs->Chess->german techno->Love parade->disaster->death..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1wH2...eature=related

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