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  1. #31
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    I don't think making some people feel uncomfortable about what some people are doing down the street that has nothing to do with them is taking anyone's rights away or keeping them from having nice things. Are African slaves nice things? I guess in that case you could at least argue a more direct loss, that the plantation owners were losing their nice slaves. There's no law mandating that anything that gays do will interfere in any way with straight people's lives. If you minded your own business, you could potentially even pretend like gay people didn't exist and live your entire life without being affected by whether or not they were married. There's no law saying your small business has to serve married gay couples, or that your church must bring them into the fold. There is no tangible effect at all. The people who care so strongly about it are actually infringing on other people's rights, and no one is doing jack shit to them.

    Boohoo, some people feel uncomfortable thinking about something that may be going on in some stranger's bedroom two streets away. What the fuck. You really are stretching.

    It might make someone uncomfortable that I own cats because they fear cats. But I have a right to own cats as pets as long as I don't inflict those cats on the people frightened of cats.

  2. #32
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    I'd also like to point out how uncomfortable punk music makes some people feel, and how uncomfortable other people are made by country music, while we're at it.

  3. #33
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I don't think making some people feel uncomfortable about what some people are doing down the street that has nothing to do with them is taking anyone's rights away or keeping them from having nice things. Are African slaves nice things? I guess in that case you could at least argue a more direct loss, that the plantation owners were losing their nice slaves. There's no law mandating that anything that gays do will interfere in anyway with straight people's lives. If you minded your own business, you could potentially even pretend like gay people didn't exist and live your entire life without being affected by whether or not they were married. There's no law saying your small business has to serve married gay couples, or that your church must bring them into the fold. There is no tangible effect at all. The people who care so strongly about it are actually infringing on other people's rights, and no one is doing jack shit to them.

    Boohoo, some people feel uncomfortable thinking about something that may be going on in someone stranger's bedroom two streets away. What the fuck. You really are stretching.
    But they are uncomfortable with it. And their beliefs are just as valid as yours are. They may be behind the times, but that doesn't mean it's right to marginalize them from society, either.

    It might make someone uncomfortable that I own cats because they fear cats. But I have a right to own cats as pets as long as I don't inflict those cats on the people frightened of cats.
    But if you had to overturn a neighborhood ordinance to own those cats, does it make the people who opposed you evil?

    I'd also like to point out how uncomfortable punk music makes some people feel, and how uncomfortable other people are made by country music, while we're at it.
    How is that relevant?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    How is that relevant?
    You don't see how feeling uncomfortable over other people's sex lives is similar to feeling uncomfortable about other people's taste in music or art?

    Don't you think that many of those people feel uncomfortable with gay marriage also feel uncomfortable with piercings, tattoos, Bad Religion concerts, dance clubs, gambling casinos that sell alcohol, strip clubs?

    This is America. If you aren't actively hurting another person your "discomfort" with what makes them happy or interests them or turns them on ...dude what are you even arguing? Are you really arguing about aesthetic or emotional discomfort?

  5. #35
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You don't see how feeling uncomfortable over other people's sex lives is similar to feeling uncomfortable about other people's taste in music or art?

    Don't you think that many of those people feel uncomfortable with gay marriage also feel uncomfortable with piercings, tattoos, Bad Religion concerts, dance clubs, gambling casinos that sell alcohol, strip clubs?

    This is America. If you aren't actively hurting another person your "discomfort" with what makes them happy or interests them or turns them on ...dude what are you even arguing? Are you really arguing about aesthetic or emotional discomfort?
    Not at all. What I'm arguing is that ideology sets us up to think of such people in the ways that you are describing, and attack that straw man, rather than address those who have genuine differences of opinion from us as respectful human beings. It is propaganda that dehumanizes the opposition, and convinces you that you should get everything, and the other guy nothing, because the other guy is evil, ignorant, stupid, bigoted, etc. The reality is always far more complex.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not at all. What I'm arguing is that ideology sets us up to think of such people in the ways that you are describing, and attack that straw man, rather than address those who have genuine differences of opinion from us as respectful human beings. It is propaganda that dehumanizes the opposition, and convinces you that you should get everything, and the other guy nothing, because the other guy is evil, ignorant, stupid, bigoted, etc. The reality is always far more complex.
    Oppressing other people is evil. That is my morality. They can believe whatever they want. I don't think that they're evil in the slightest for believing that homosexuality is morally wrong. They are totally entitled to believe that gay people suck, to never talk to them, to refuse to befriend them, and to complain to their wives and best friends about those gays. I can't stop them, nor do I want to. HOWEVER, the act of actively attempting to stop homosexuals to have equal rights to heterosexuals, particularly in light of scientific evidence that homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom and is natural and innate for some people, AND the fact that there's a separation of church in state...yeah, I do think that part of it is evil.

    Refusing to intermarry with a person of a different race or religion is a mite bit different than lynching them or bombing them. Same with gays...you don't have to like them, talk to them, or approve of their relations, but you also need to back the fuck off of what other people are doing with their love lives.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    The issue is that Switzerland is a 7.9m population....

    The U.S. is 300m+ population....

    That is a HUGE difference of attempting to implement a direct democracy.
    Explain

    Besides, one could easily replace representation at the state level with direct democracy.

    Most states in the Union have less than 7.9 million people

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Explain

    Besides, one could easily replace representation at the state level with direct democracy.

    Most states in the Union have less than 7.9 million people
    I have thought about this myself, that maybe each of the United States should have different laws as long as they're Constitutional ...so like some places will be more liberal and others conservative, and you still have a right as a U.S. citizen to move to a part of the country that has laws that make you feel more comfortable. I mean that's already true to an extent, like California and West Virginia are more liberal than North Carolina or Tennessee. Nevada has legal gambling and prostitution.

    But, like, once upon a time you could lose your license in Arizona and go get a driver's license in Colorodo, and by "once upon a time" I mean in the 90's.

    I dunno. Some people argue that this is not a good plan to divide the states this way, that it's like dividing them into different countries.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I have thought about this myself, that maybe each of the United States should have different laws as long as they're Constitutional ...so like some places will be more liberal and others conservative, and you still have a right as a U.S. citizen to move to a part of the country that has laws that make you feel more comfortable. I mean that's already true to an extent, like California and West Virginia are more liberal than North Carolina or Tennessee. Nevada has legal gambling and prostitution.

    But, like, once upon a time you could lose your license in Arizona and go get a driver's license in Colorodo, and by "once upon a time" I mean in the 90's.

    I dunno. Some people argue that this is not a good plan to divide the states this way, that it's like dividing them into different countries.
    But why wouldn't you divide them? Different regions of the USA are completely different. Even different cities in the SAME state are completely different. You can drive for 60 minutes in this place and the rules change completely, the circumstances are completely different, and the laws should reflect that. Cultures vary greatly so we have to accommodate for them by allowing autonomy (I believe this is the key strength of democracy) rather than homogeneity.

  10. #40
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Explain

    Besides, one could easily replace representation at the state level with direct democracy.

    Most states in the Union have less than 7.9 million people
    In a sense, a bit of voting on the state level is like a direct democracy (like getting signatures to bring a ballot to be voted on because the politicians won't want the ballot.)

    BUT, in some respects to what Marmie just said, the way the system was created was to protect the minority. Having the U.S. change from a representative democracy (with its bicameral system) to a direct democracy would mean that California, Texas, New York, and a few other states would have all the power (and even more if the system would change this instant.), while small states like North Dakota would have almost none. What these big states want, is what these small states get because the big states cover the vast majority of the U.S.

    The HoR allows that to happen while the Senate prevents that from happening. It is purposely a balancing act. While I do hate how this system gets nowhere a lot of times.... the system was intended as a balancing act to try to prevent any extreme forms of legislation to take effect without some compromise.
    Last edited by Rail Tracer; 07-14-2011 at 03:51 PM.

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