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  1. #21
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    No doubt that's how it's been shaped, to appeal to the masses. This doesn't necessarily mean that the initial thought processes that created portions of the ideology were intended that way. I'm talking about the seed, you're talking about the plant.
    I understand what you're saying. On the other hand, politics is a very petty, nasty business - the business of deciding who gets what. At the core of every ideology, is a very petty, nasty thought - "I (we) should get a lot, and you should not, and here is why." The depressing part is the "here is why" always ends up the same way: "because I don't like you and the other people similar to you, and I don't think you deserve nice things in life."

    This is the essence of every political ideology. The winners are the ones who come up with the most compelling iterations of it to either the most, or the most powerful.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I understand what you're saying. On the other hand, politics is a very petty, nasty business - the business of deciding who gets what. At the core of every ideology, is a very petty, nasty thought - "I (we) should get a lot, and you should not, and here is why." The depressing part is the "here is why" always ends up the same way: "because I don't like you and the other people similar to you, and I don't think you deserve nice things in life."

    This is the essence of every political ideology. The winners are the ones who come up with the most compelling iterations of it to either the most, or the most powerful.
    I don't think that's the essence of every political ideology, bro. It may be at the heart of many economic and militaristic ideologies, but I'm afraid politics which support equal rights and things of that nature are just about people getting their fair share, and keeping other people from using or taking advantage of those people.

    Is it depressing to put a murderer in prison, to tell him he doesn't deserve nice things because he cut up a little girl with a deer knife? That's depressing? Really?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    It is too bad our system is a bland two party system.
    parties are unnecessary, just use a referendum and a desire to have whatever it is that you have the will to vote for

  4. #24
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    It's definitely not in Republican's interest to agree to raise taxes on the rich. It would be great for the country for them to take this $4 trillion deficit cutting deal and it's a great compromise for them, they'd get a lot more spending cuts than tax hikes. But for 2012 they'd lose their main talking point, that Obama and Dems don't care about deficit cutting, it will also help them if people are worrying about us turning out like Greece. They boxed themselves into an ideological hole with all these stupid vows.

    Regardless of the deal the debt ceiling will be raised, because Repubs will get the blame. We've already spent this money. Obama has even offered social security cuts, but I think it's show, he did it knowing they wouldn't take any deal, and he hasn't budged on not including tax hikes. I think there will be a much smaller deal when it's said and done.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    parties are unnecessary, just use a referendum and a desire to have whatever it is that you have the will to vote for
    Cool story, bro.

    Now would you like to explain how anything would actually get accomplished on a large scale that way, or shall we bring an ENTJ in?

    I can see this working in a large farm house full of people, or on a duchy/tenant farm, but not in an entire nation.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Cool story, bro.

    Now would you like to explain how anything would actually get accomplished on a large scale that way, or shall we bring an ENTJ in?

    I can see this working in a large farm house full of people, or on a duchy/tenant farm, but not in an entire nation.
    Direct democracy works just fine, educate yourself

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland

    Naturally, a referendum for each issue is unnecessary, but it can easily be implemented on a very large scale

  7. #27
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I don't think that's the essence of every political ideology, bro. It may be at the heart of many economic and militaristic ideologies, but I'm afraid politics which support equal rights and things of that nature are just about people getting their fair share, and keeping other people from using or taking advantage of those people.
    Is it, though? Let's take NY's recent gay marriage bill. I believe it was far overdue, but look at some of the portrayals: it wasn't just an update of policy to reflect modern cultural sensibilities, it was a "great triumph for justice and truth against bigotry and ignorance"... in other words, to those who were uncomfortable with the idea of gay marriage (for whatever reason), the message was this - "we're going to get our way about this and you're not, and we don't care about your objections to it, because you're ignorant bigots." On the other side, the ideology stated that we will keep marriage exclusively to heterosexuals, and you'll just have to suffer, because you're a bunch of sinners and obnoxious do-gooder liberals.

    Reasonable people either agree or disagree with a policy based on their own judgment, and multiple factors. Ideology attempts to reduce the judgment to that of absolute good versus absolute evil.

    Is it depressing to put a murderer in prison, to tell him he doesn't deserve nice things because he cut up a little girl with a deer knife? That's depressing? Really?
    Well, yeah - it's pretty awful that we must do such things in the first place, because he committed a terrible crime. Concern about this is also part of why we demand criminal cases be proven beyond a reasonable doubt - because it's even more depressing to put an innocent man in prison, or even execute him, just because we think he carved up a girl with a deerknife.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is it, though? Let's take NY's recent gay marriage bill. I believe it was far overdue, but look at some of the portrayals: it wasn't just an update of policy to reflect modern cultural sensibilities, it was a "great triumph for justice and truth against bigotry and ignorance"... in other words, to those who were uncomfortable with the idea of gay marriage (for whatever reason), the message was this - "we're going to get our way about this and you're not, and we don't care about your objections to it, because you're ignorant bigots." On the other side, the ideology stated that we will keep marriage exclusively to heterosexuals, and you'll just have to suffer, because you're a bunch of sinners and obnoxious do-gooder liberals.

    Reasonable people either agree or disagree with a policy based on their own judgment, and multiple factors. Ideology attempts to reduce the judgment to that of absolute good versus absolute evil.
    Those people are bigoted. Gay marriage doesn't harm them in any way. I could see if the gay marriage bill restricted conservative Christians some way, if it took away their right to hate privately or discuss their hatred of gays on the Internet, or if it interfered with heterosexual marriage...but it doesn't.

    So I think you're stretching.


    Well, yeah - it's pretty awful that we must do such things in the first place, because he committed a terrible crime. Concern about this is also part of why we demand criminal cases be proven beyond a reasonable doubt - because it's even more depressing to put an innocent man in prison, or even execute him, just because we think he carved up a girl with a deerknife.
    It doesn't depress me at all, in the case that the person is actually proven guilty. My rights end where yours begin.

    Otherwise, we'd be a bunch of vikings and pirates.

    Arrrgh!

    And even pirates and vikings plunder and steal from others, so it's not like politics created this human conundrum of deciding who gets what, politics just brought reason and fairness into it.

  9. #29
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Direct democracy works just fine, educate yourself

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland

    Naturally, a referendum for each issue is unnecessary, but it can easily be implemented on a very large scale
    The issue is that Switzerland is a 7.9m population....

    The U.S. is 300m+ population....

    That is a HUGE difference of attempting to implement a direct democracy.

  10. #30
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Those people are bigoted. Gay marriage doesn't harm them in any way. I could see if the gay marriage bill restricted conservative Christians some way, if it took away their right to hate privately or discuss their hatred of gays on the Internet, or if it interfered with heterosexual marriage...but it doesn't.

    So I think you're stretching.
    No, not really. The idea of gay marriage made some people uncomfortable, because the idea of one man and one woman joining one another, with the perfect union of opposite sexes, was one of those things that made marriage special and important to them. In their eyes, allowing any two adults to do it, regardless of gender, cheapened it. The rhetoric from the pro-gay marriage side often conflated people who believed this with those who held outright animosity toward gay people. In short, it declared benign, if traditionalistic, people to be malignant bigots.

    I supported the NY law, because I think it's good policy. But I don't think I am right on the subject, or can even claim to be right on it. I certainly don't think my opponents are to a person hateful bigots.

    It doesn't depress me at all, in the case that the person is actually proven guilty. My rights end where yours begin.
    Then it's no longer ideology or politics - it's the execution of justice as defined by law. One of the beautiful things about the common law system is that the law can exist separately from the selfish hands of politics.

    Otherwise, we'd be a bunch of vikings and pirates.

    Arrrgh!

    And even pirates and vikings plunder and steal from others, so it's not like politics created this human conundrum of deciding who gets what, politics just brought reason and fairness into it.
    Not in the least bit. Cultural norms and shifts brought reason and fairness into society. Politicians took credit for it when they realized that it would help them secure more political power. The point is that our political class only does anything when it thinks it can get something out of it, be it votes or graft.

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