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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    There are too many "what ifs", so therefore, it is not beyond a reasonable doubt. Scott Peterson was a totally different affair, and a different person.
    Sure, it's mostly conjecture that it was an accidental death, but it's still possible and reasonable. Therefore, it's not beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Perhaps I am missing something but accidental (or nonculpable, at least as to first degree murder, to the accused) death followed by a cover up seems to be a reasonable doubt. The fact that so many other jury's would convict a ham sandwich if the DA told them too doesn't necessarily make what this jury did was wrong. The DA has the burden and under the law the defense isn't "obligated under the law" (although it might of have been malpractice not to have put on a better defense) to show anything except 'affirmative defenses' which don't appear necessarily applicable.
    Why is that reasonable? Why would her father, a former police officer, cover up an accidental death? Why do so in a manner that suggests homicide? Why, with his own daughter facing the death penalty, would he not come forward with that "truth"? Why would Casey, knowing her daughter just died, go out and party for the next month until Caylee was reported missing?

    Is there anything, ANYTHING, other than the story of the defendant, who did not actually testify as to this story - someone that repeatedly lied and lied again - that would suggest she is finally telling the truth about what happened to her daughter? Is that's all you both require for reasonable doubt - an unlikely story from a known liar with bizarre motives?

    Suppose I tell a crowd of people I'm going to a seaside cliff to kill someone, and load up my gun and head out, and that person is never seen again. The only thing I have to do for reasonable doubt is say I never saw the other person, and maybe he accidentally fell off the cliff and died?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    If it was a murder and premeditated, this was the shoddiest, stupidest coverup known to man. It more looks like someone ended up with a dead body, panicked, and didn't know what to do.
    Ha! You must not read much about murder. There are far stupider killers than this out there. She got extremely lucky - months went by before the body was discovered, destroying much of the evidence.

  3. #43
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Ha! You must not read much about murder. There are far stupider killers than this out there. She got extremely lucky - months went by before the body was discovered, destroying much of the evidence.
    Yes, I know there are some stupid murderers out there, but generally, they are sociopaths. And, they usually aren't so stupid that they fail to call the police to report the missing victim when they are the mother lol..... Yes, I realize it destroyed the evidence, however, there was very little evidence in Scott Peterson's case either. She was putting herself in dire risk, and if she really did this to party (which I don't believe she would do), then I'm sure the party was good behind bars. I don't see the reasoning there either. She had to know before she committed premeditated murder that she would spend at least some time behind bars, and not partying like she wanted. I don't see a motive anyway... apparently she was partying like a bitch before the toddler disappeared.
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  4. #44
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Why is that reasonable? Why would her father, a former police officer, cover up an accidental death? Why do so in a manner that suggests homicide? Why, with his own daughter facing the death penalty, would he not come forward with that "truth"? Why would Casey, knowing her daughter just died, go out and party for the next month until Caylee was reported missing?

    Is there anything, ANYTHING, other than the story of the defendant, who did not actually testify as to this story - someone that repeatedly lied and lied again - that would suggest she is finally telling the truth about what happened to her daughter? Is that's all you both require for reasonable doubt - an unlikely story from a known liar with bizarre motives?
    If he did why would the father help cover up the death? Because it was his daughter, a relationship that tends to have a protective bond? Perhaps he abused the child and didn't want further scrutiny? Most likely is that being a police officer he is aware of the fact that when both the guilty as well as innocent get under the scope of the police that criminal charges are often laid and sometimes unreported crimes fall though the cracks. I don't thinks she or the father was under a duty to do so (report the child to the police as a missing person) to the point of risking a felony under Florida law. And although unethical its easier to preserve right to remain silent. etc...Maybe the child is missing for some other reason that is illegal that doesn't fit 1st degree murder (white slavery or other child exploitation, chloroform doping in lue of securing a babysitter, misdemeanor manslaughter, other incriminating reasons short of 1st degree murder etc.)

    Maybe Casey continued going out and partying because that what she normally does. Maybe she wanted to kill the pain with alcohol, drugs and denial. Maybe she is a dumb callous bitch who just happened also, like many to such a creed, not to have intentionally killed her child. Who knows? although unusual I don't see a casual connection in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Suppose I tell a crowd of people I'm going to a seaside cliff to kill someone, and load up my gun and head out, and that person is never seen again. The only thing I have to do for reasonable doubt is say I never saw the other person, and maybe he accidentally fell off the cliff and died?
    No, that is not a sufficent hypothetical to rule out reasonable doublt for first degree murder in most jurisdictions under a fair reading of the law. I have heard other people threaten to kill others and never follow through, most of the time its hyperbole. Something more akin to a corpus delicti would need to be shown (a dead body or at least significant direct or circumstantial evidence blood splatters, bullet casings at the scene of the alleged crime, eyewitness, or other shot up bodies beyond the admission that a homicide had been committed as distinguished from a simple missing person incident. Sometimes people chose to disapear. Sometimes they chose to disappear when they hear someone is trying to kill them. Sometimes there are other causes for a disappearance. Their a lot of other investigation techniques and tools to distinguish a missing person from a homicide sans body.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  5. #45
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Why would her father, a former police officer, cover up an accidental death?
    Because he was molesting Caylee, and he didn't want to be found out for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Why do so in a manner that suggests homicide? Why, with his own daughter facing the death penalty, would he not come forward with that "truth"?
    Because he's a sociopath, and he couldn't care less if Casey goes to jail or not. He's interested in his own outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Why would Casey, knowing her daughter just died, go out and party for the next month until Caylee was reported missing?
    Either 1) She was too mentally ill to remember the facts, and her mind was creating a scenario where Caylee was not dead; or 2) The father ordered her to keep quiet and keep this from her mother. The mother is the one that ended up calling the police, not the father. She had to leave the house to hide the news of the missing toddler from the mother, and she found some friends to bunk in with. She partied, as usual. The father may have also told her to "act natural", and partying was what she did usually. The guys she was staying with worked at a nightclub, so, of course she went with them to hang out there. Things were supposedly normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Is there anything, ANYTHING, other than the story of the defendant, who did not actually testify as to this story - someone that repeatedly lied and lied again - that would suggest she is finally telling the truth about what happened to her daughter? Is that's all you both require for reasonable doubt - an unlikely story from a known liar with bizarre motives?
    Reasonable doubt = there are other possibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Suppose I tell a crowd of people I'm going to a seaside cliff to kill someone, and load up my gun and head out, and that person is never seen again. The only thing I have to do for reasonable doubt is say I never saw the other person, and maybe he accidentally fell off the cliff and died?
    This has nothing to do with anything lol....

    My point being, that I would convict her of other charges, but not first-degree murder. If there weren't other people involved, it might be a different story, but the relationships between the people involved, and the types of people they are, make the options greater than say, in Scott Peterson's case.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    white slavery
    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    he was molesting Caylee
    WTF does this detour into crazyland have to do with "reasonable"?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Reasonable doubt = there are other possibilities.
    And no.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    When people try to cover up a murder, they generally call the police and report the missing body, else they incriminate themselves. She did not report the toddler missing, therefore, it's hard for me to see this as someone who was covering it up, but simply putting it off, or creating stories in their mind to pretend it didn't happen at all. Scott Peterson called the police and reported his wife missing, like any logical person would do if they didn't want to be found out.
    My impression of Scott Peterson is that, while he isn't a genius per se, he's much smarter and rational than Casey Anthony. His biggest problem was his masculine hubris and/or megalomaniac behavior, in thinking he could two-time his wife and play a game with Amber after his wife disappeared and not have it catch up to him.

    From afar, Casey Anthony seems to be "bottom of the bin." She's not cogent, she lives moment to moment, she doesn't seem to have any workable plans for her life, she couldn't even see the benefit in having a daughter. Self-absorbed (like Scott) and psychologically imbalanced. She seems destined to go nowhere and be no one.

    I don't think she thought about anything, frankly, outside the current moment. She doesn't have the mental capacity to construct any sort of coherent narrative to the degree Peterson tried; he would have had a shot at it if his lack of empathy for his missing/dead wife hadn't been so obvious.

    It's much easier to believe it happened by accident, of neglect or violence.
    Actually, I could buy that. I think it's believable an accident happened that she exploited afterwards, and/or that she hurt her daughter without specific plans to do so, by just responding in the moment out of frustration about her life. Then, once it was done, it was like, "Oh well, that's that." She wouldn't have known how to handle it either, due to her lack of emotional resources; and if she's as mentally screwed up as it seems, I can seem her mind inventing information meant to explain the event away.

    (Scott's plan seems like it would have been more premeditated -- he likely dabbled in thoughts about it, had a plan of how to do it, and had material around to help him with it, people actually do that stuff in other areas of life too for things they want to do but are scared to commit to -- but it's still likely that he waited until some event triggered things rather than just planning and carrying it out straightaway.)

    The thing with Casey, though... if all that is true... it's likely she'll end up doing the same sort of crap over and over again. At least with premeditation, there's an obvious choice. Casey just seems like she's too dumb and/or screwed up to properly avoid such potential mishaps, she'll just end up in similar situations if left to her own devices.
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  9. #49
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    WTF does this detour into crazyland have to do with "reasonable"?
    When a toddler goes missing without being reported it doesn't detour into crazyland it originates from there.

    Good points raised above but I disagree which the below point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Reasonable doubt = there are other possibilities.
    Beyond any doubt = there are no other possiblities. Beyond Reasonable doubt (legal standard)= no other possiblities that are reasonable exist.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  10. #50
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My impression of Scott Peterson is that, while he isn't a genius per se, he's much smarter and rational than Casey Anthony. His biggest problem was his masculine hubris and/or megalomaniac behavior, in thinking he could two-time his wife and play a game with Amber after his wife disappeared and not have it catch up to him.

    From afar, Casey Anthony seems to be "bottom of the bin." She's not cogent, she lives moment to moment, she doesn't seem to have any workable plans for her life, she couldn't even see the benefit in having a daughter. Self-absorbed (like Scott) and psychologically imbalanced. She seems destined to go nowhere and be no one.

    I don't think she thought about anything, frankly, outside the current moment. She doesn't have the mental capacity to construct any sort of coherent narrative to the degree Peterson tried; he would have had a shot at it if his lack of empathy for his missing/dead wife hadn't been so obvious.
    Agreed, which is why I have trouble believing she premeditated a murder, also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    The thing with Casey, though... if all that is true... it's likely she'll end up doing the same sort of crap over and over again. At least with premeditation, there's an obvious choice. Casey just seems like she's too dumb and/or screwed up to properly avoid such potential mishaps, she'll just end up in similar situations if left to her own devices.
    Yep.
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