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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Good question. Would you feel better if the government or the corporations controlled the information for databases on DNA for children who could become criminals?

    I don't want either one to be able to legally compile and keep a data base on children who *could* become criminals.

    You are the one who keeps trying to make it an either/or type of situation.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    BTW, every time you use "free market" and "libertarian" as epithets, I do a little dance inside, like this guy: Why would I feel bad about being pro-freedom on all issues?
    Because freedom is just as much an illusion as equality or prosperity. All things in life are ultimately a frame of mind. A slave can be freer than his master. A dog can be worthier than a person. A starving family can have more than a billionaire. Even though I am guilty of the same crime, I hate to see people throw their lives away to something that only exists in their minds. And when people deny others their illusions for the claim of their own illusion, it just pisses me off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't want either one to be able to legally compile and keep a data base on children who *could* become criminals.

    You are the one who keeps trying to make it an either/or type of situation.
    What are you talking about?

    That question was rhetorical. My actual suggestion was that an independent entity be entrusted with the task.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    What are you talking about?

    That question was rhetorical. My actual suggestion was that an independent entity be entrusted with the task.

    How about no one keep DNA records on any thing that *could* be the case until we understand better just how much of a real issue this is? Maybe what makes one person a criminal, merely makes another a misfit or a free thinker based on their overall enviroment?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Because freedom is just as much an illusion as equality or prosperity. All things in life are ultimately a frame of mind. A slave can be freer than his master. A dog can be worthier than a person. A starving family can have more than a billionaire. Even though I am guilty of the same crime, I hate to see people throw their lives away to something that only exists in their minds. And when people deny others their illusions for the claim of their own illusion, it just pisses me off.
    That philosophy is, frankly, disturbing. To say that freedom is illusory or "a frame of mind" denies human reality to an almost-nihilistic degree. Do you think that citizens of Germany or the Soviet Union in the 1930s and 1940s or China in the late-20th Century were free? Many of them honestly believed that their governments were doing the right thing by promoting their race or class or nation; does their blindness erase the fact that they were pawns of slavemasters? Of course not! I am unhappy with the direction in which our nation is going, but look at Iran, North Korea, Zimbabwe, etc., and tell me honestly that those people are as free as we are, whether in their minds or not.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    How about no one keep DNA records on any thing that *could* be the case until we understand better just how much of a real issue this is? Maybe what makes one person a criminal, merely makes another a misfit or a free thinker based on their overall enviroment?
    Great points. I only place a lot of the onus on the parents not to play along with this proposed system.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    How about no one keep DNA records on any thing that *could* be the case until we understand better just how much of a real issue this is? Maybe what makes one person a criminal, merely makes another a misfit or a free thinker based on their overall enviroment?
    I agree. However, I think it should be an all or nothing endeavor. We should either keep records on everyone from birth or not do it at all. But we should know more before we decide to do something like that here.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That philosophy is, frankly, disturbing. To say that freedom is illusory or "a frame of mind" denies human reality to an almost-nihilistic degree. Do you think that citizens of Germany or the Soviet Union in the 1930s and 1940s or China in the late-20th Century were free? Many of them honestly believed that their governments were doing the right thing by promoting their race or class or nation; does their blindness erase the fact that they were pawns of slavemasters? Of course not! I am unhappy with the direction in which our nation is going, but look at Iran, North Korea, Zimbabwe, etc., and tell me honestly that those people are as free as we are, whether in their minds or not.
    More like Satyagraha than Nihilism. Freedom is the power to act, speak, or think in the way in which we want. Freedom is nothing but power, and power is the illusion. Can you control whether this country goes to war or not? Can you control whether we fall into a depression or not? Can you control the crime in your community? Can you control the choices the members in your family make? Can you control what your family, school, peers, and community teach you and ultimately enforce in your values and morals? You can't control any of those things. All you can control is what you do. You can work, or not work. You can spend the money you earn, or not spend it. You can vote or not vote. You can try to enforce rules in your household or not to enforce them. But even those powers are limited to a certain set of circumstances. The power to decide when you work can be taken away, the power to vote can be taken away, and so forth. Why do we place so much value in those powers? Because humans like the illusion of control.

    But as I said, a slave can be freer than a master. A slave can be free to dream, can conspire to learn, can committ to being a good person, but the master is stuck maintaining the plantation, his thinking is stuck in his ways, and he can never be a good person because he lives off the backs of others.

    I've known people from the Soviet Union and China. They are no different than any other person. But even when they were most oppressed, they were still free. They still had the choices with what they could do with their lives. They could always have given up their lives for some cause, but they chose to work and believe what they were told. It was their will to do so. The fact of the matter is we have no control over the external world, only the choices we make in this world. That is all freedom is, the power to choose. And people who crave more freedom, are just people who want more power, because they believe that will somehow give them more control. And that is the illusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I agree. However, I think it should be an all or nothing endeavor. We should either keep records on everyone from birth or not do it at all. But we should know more before we decide to do something like that here.



    More like Satyagraha than Nihilism. Freedom is the power to act, speak, or think in the way in which we want. Freedom is nothing but power, and power is the illusion. Can you control whether this country goes to war or not? Can you control whether we fall into a depression or not? Can you control the crime in your community? Can you control the choices the members in your family make? Can you control what your family, school, peers, and community teach you and ultimately enforce in your values and morals? You can't control any of those things. All you can control is what you do. You can work, or not work. You can spend the money you earn, or not spend it. You can vote or not vote. You can try to enforce rules in your household or not to enforce them. But even those powers are limited to a certain set of circumstances. The power to decide when you work can be taken away, the power to vote can be taken away, and so forth. Why do we place so much value in those powers? Because humans like the illusion of control.

    But as I said, a slave can be freer than a master. A slave can be free to dream, can conspire to learn, can committ to being a good person, but the master is stuck maintaining the plantation, his thinking is stuck in his ways, and he can never be a good person because he lives off the backs of others.

    I've known people from the Soviet Union and China. They are no different than any other person. But even when they were most oppressed, they were still free. They still had the choices with what they could do with their lives. They could always have given up their lives for some cause, but they chose to work and believe what they were told. It was their will to do so. The fact of the matter is we have no control over the external world, only the choices we make in this world. That is all freedom is, the power to choose. And people who crave more freedom, are just people who want more power, because they believe that will somehow give them more control. And that is the illusion.
    The power to choose can be taken by despots. And a slave being ignorant of their condition does not mean that they are free.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The power to choose can be taken by despots. And a slave being ignorant of their condition does not mean that they are free.
    You misunderstand. A slave can be perfectly aware of their oppressed condition and still be much more free than their master. At no point did I even suggest that a person would be anymore free if they were ignorant of their situation. To the contrary, what people need to be most free is a complete understanding of the illusion of freedom. Freedom is only power, power in only control, and the only thing you have any control over is the choices you make. It is perfectly percievable that a slave can have more choices than his master, it is only the frame of mind that limits what those choices are. Hence, freedom is only a frame of mind. It's an illusion which exists only within our minds.

    I don't mean to play the sensor card, but perhaps this may be too abstract to you for you to wrap your mind around. As I remember, sensors like to think of things, even abstract concepts such as freedom, as concrete and real.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You misunderstand. A slave can be perfectly aware of their oppressed condition and still be much more free than their master. At no point did I even suggest that a person would be anymore free if they were ignorant of their situation. To the contrary, what people need to be most free is a complete understanding of the illusion of freedom. Freedom is only power, power in only control, and the only thing you have any control over is the choices you make. It is perfectly percievable that a slave can have more choices than his master, it is only the frame of mind that limits what those choices are. Hence, freedom is only a frame of mind. It's an illusion which exists only within our minds.

    I don't mean to play the sensor card, but perhaps this may be too abstract to you for you to wrap your mind around. As I remember, sensors like to think of things, even abstract concepts such as freedom, as concrete and real.
    I understand and can wrap my mind around what you are saying about freedom and it is a good practice to try and be as free within our thoughts and make the best of our given choices as we possibly can. That's all good..but there's no denying that people in situations where they are not free physically are worse off than those who are in situations where they are free, if both do these things.

    The slave owner might make a prison in his own mind or the choices he makes with what he is presented with and his free thinking slave might actually be more free in his mind, but the slave owner makes his prison by CHOICE, the slave does not.

    The slave owner has the ability to be free both within and without his own mind, these choices are denied the slave in the world outside his own mind. The slave might make a better selection of the choices he is given through better use of his judgement but the slave owner is free at any time to use better judgement and he may select from more choices or walk away from his situation altogether if it is too limiting. The slave cannot! (Yes, he could chose to run but let's assume for the sake of context that in this situation its a lockdown and he can't)

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