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  1. #21
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    As a 30 year old adult who has both Ne and Si, I see the value in both. Innovation while totally rejecting what has come before is dangerous and possibly stupid, but tradition without questioning those traditions or creating anything new also seems self-defeating and ignorant to me. There has to be a balance of both.

    I actually get annoyed with people who want to completely reject the way everything was before, because I feel they're rejecting important factual information and things that were of value and quality of the past. If we do not learn from our past, we are doomed to repeat it.

    Plus, houses and buildings built in the 19th century have a level of craftsmanship that is often entirely neglected today, and I think people who have no sense of preservation are kind of retarded. These people may also reject the importance of Earth and nature.

    On the other hand, tradition for traditions sake while ignoring new information, facts, or ideas is equally retarded. See: extremely conservative fundamentalist Christian Republicans.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Innovation is a human tradition

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I think tradition informs innovations. Often, the same principles apply in innovations that existed in traditions, it's just a new manifestation of it, a tweaking, an updating to better serve a new context. In that way, I don't see them as contradictory, no.

    I do see people generally favoring one over the other, as far as what should be trusted or pursued. Some people will always want change, in hopes of improvement, and some see change as a possible threat to the current order or past ways, which worked for a time at least. One can be destructive & the other rigid, but often people meet in the middle with a little persuasion that calms any knee-jerk aversion. In MBTI terms, this is why judging is so important (as much as those functions get less praise 'round these parts); it's the reasoning process that tempers the inclination to always perceive things via intuition or sensing, so that you can see the value in the other way.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think tradition informs innovations.
    I agree with your post, but I just want to point out that Simulated World told me that this particular mindset displayed in this one sentence is very Ne/Si. He said it's one of the reasons why he can tell I have Ne/Si rather than Se/Ni....Ne types tend to create something new based on Si stored past information, while Se takes what is currently actually there in the present and develops something with the Ni underlying context/meaning/symbolism.

    So what you're saying is true, but I'd be interested in seeing how an Ni/Se or Se/Ni type would word that same concept, just to test the theory Sim World presented.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    This dichotomy is the source of a lot of stress in my relationships. I would definitely consider myself a balanced innovator. What I find annoying is the unfairness between the two... the innovator must have solid understanding of existing methods and traditions, but the traditionalist has very little understanding for the innovator who tries to improve but fails. Often times this failure is due to a number of uncontrolled factors which do not indicate the idea itself was a bad idea, yet the majority of society will respond this way. Personally I think it is because they are lazy and selfish and don't want to put in effort to change things, and when you try and change things they'll drag you down just to retain their comfortably sub-par style of living.

  6. #26
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    This dichotomy is the source of a lot of stress in my relationships. I would definitely consider myself a balanced innovator. What I find annoying is the unfairness between the two... the innovator must have solid understanding of existing methods and traditions, but the traditionalist has very little understanding for the innovator who tries to improve but fails. Often times this failure is due to a number of uncontrolled factors which do not indicate the idea itself was a bad idea, yet the majority of society will respond this way. Personally I think it is because they are lazy and selfish and don't want to put in effort to change things, and when you try and change things they'll drag you down just to retain their comfortably sub-par style of living.
    I think this is quite true.

    I have a feeling this is often the source of the disdain an "innovator" may feel for tradition. It's not so much resentment for the tradition itself as feeling constrained by those who adhere to it & are unwilling to consider alternatives. The advantage tradition has is often having a lot of followers, because it's been around long enough to become the norm, and so innovation sometimes faces an uphill battle. Of course, the downside of innovation, when it's too frequent, is a lack of stability - there's too much chaos & it's distracting from other issues. This is what fuels traditionalists resistance to innovation; they view it as destructive, and they use instances of when it did not work to support that view.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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