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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    I support a tradition of innovation. Ha!
    Ah, very clever, but what about the innovation of tradition?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    OT, but this thread kinda reminds me of this...



    Thank you for the unintentional earworm.

  3. #13
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Most innovation comes from a base of tradition. Every revolutionary is reacting against tradition, in any sphere.

  4. #14
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    I've been reading On Liberty and just came across this passage, which I found relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stuart Mill (1806-1873). On Liberty. 1869. Chapter II: Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion
    In politics, again, it is almost a commonplace, that a party of order or stability, and a party of progress or reform, are both necessary elements of a healthy state of political life; until the one or the other shall have so enlarged its mental grasp as to be a party equally of order and of progress, knowing and distinguishing what is fit to be preserved from what ought to be swept away. Each of these modes of thinking derives its utility from the deficiencies of the other; but it is in a great measure the opposition of the other that keeps each within the limits of reason and sanity. Unless opinions favourable to democracy and to aristocracy, to property and to equality, to co-operation and to competition, to luxury and to abstinence, to sociality and individuality, to liberty and discipline, and all the other standing antagonisms of practical life, are expressed with equal freedom, and enforced and defended with equal talent and energy, there is no chance of both elements obtaining their due; one scale is sure to go up, and the other down. Truth, in the great practical concerns of life, is so much a question of the reconciling and combining of opposites, that very few have minds sufficiently capacious and impartial to make the adjustment with an approach to correctness, and it has to be made by the rough process of a struggle between combatants fighting under hostile banners. On any of the great open questions just enumerated, if either of the two opinions has a better claim than the other, not merely to be tolerated, but to be encouraged and countenanced, it is the one which happens at the particular time and place to be in a minority. That is the opinion which, for the time being, represents the neglected interests, the side of human well-being which is in danger of obtaining less than its share. I am aware that there is not, in this country, any intolerance of differences of opinion on most of these topics. They are adduced to show, by admitted and multiplied examples, the universality of the fact, that only through diversity of opinion is there, in the existing state of human intellect, a chance of fair play to all sides of the truth. When there are persons to be found, who form an exception to the apparent unanimity of the world on any subject, even if the world is in the right, it is always probable that dissentients have something worth hearing to say for themselves, and that truth would lose something by their silence.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Bagehot wrote about reflective conservatism in the same way as JS Mill's Order and Progress idea, although Bagehot suggested there were conservatives of enjoyment, conservatives of reaction and had his own categories, the reflective sort were those who would be cautious or prudent about innovation for want of a better way of putting it.

  6. #16
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Bagehot wrote about reflective conservatism in the same way as JS Mill's Order and Progress idea, although Bagehot suggested there were conservatives of enjoyment, conservatives of reaction and had his own categories, the reflective sort were those who would be cautious or prudent about innovation for want of a better way of putting it.
    How is it possible to be prudent about innovation? It happens at it's own pace, especially in the capitalist world.

  7. #17
    Junior Member Tannhauser's Avatar
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    Tradition is not something you choose to live by. To ask someone why they chose just the parents that they have, is just about the same terminology. You can't say that you are not a traditionalist of some sort, it would be as crazy to say that you're not a part of a culture. Defacto, all your actions are based upon tradition and culture(When talking in political terms).

    However, some of us connect traditions with morals. Which is WRONG because it alienates the only thing politics should be about: mutual solutions.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    I support a tradition of innovation. Ha!
    +1

    You can also innovate tradition. See Protestantism.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Are you a traditionalist or an innovator? Do you consider that a false dichotomy and its possible to be both in equal measure? Perhaps you believe it is a false dichotomy but believe that none the less, while seeking to maintain a foot in both camps, you will inevitably come down more heavily as one rather than the other.

    You might believe that its not a useful typology at all. If so why? If you are one or the other or both or both but more the one than the other why so? Is it because you are against or in opposition to one rather than favouring the other? Again why?

    I'm interested. I'm beginning to consider this the fundamental dividing line between people politically but also perhaps philosophically and culturally too.
    I consider myself more of a traditionalist than an innovator. I think I need a strong basis for anything I work at. I want to learn all the known information and traditional methods in order to have a solid ground. I think this is due to 6 tendencies. That doesn't mean I don't become more innovative later, and I do, but I don't tend to go there early-on. After I have a solid basis, I start branching out, sometimes becoming too innovative as boredom sets in more and more.

    Irl, I've also noticed where it seems that personality can influence political choices. And I suppose J's might more suggest conservative values while P's suggest more liberal ways of life (generally, I don't want to get into which p's wouldn't be liberal and which j's would be more liberal, but you get the picture). I don't think i really have enough basis to believe that's true, but I've definitely considered it. Philosophically and culturally, same way. As I see the different types irl, some definitely appear to be more conservative in style and choices, and others more liberal, depending on personality type. But I've found that sometimes their political affiliations don't show that..... it almost seems more of a social stance influenced by region and/or environment than a true expression of personality type. People are influenced by their peers, and they become indoctrinated by their families or associations. My S.O. is an exception to what I see outside.... he is entj and has always been strongly conservative, even though he was surrounded by mostly liberals. He's a very solid person, which is what I need lol.... I really haven't ever identified with either party totally, tbth.
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  10. #20

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    Tradition is a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting.
    Innovation is something new or different that is introduced.

    Tradition is the ground on which the figure of innovation is drawn.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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