User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 20

  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,675

    Default Are some political ideologies more compatible with pessimism than optimism?

    If they are which ones? Would describe yourself as more or less pessimistic or optimistic and does it influence what your politics are? Do you think your politics could influence whether you are pessimistic or optimistic?

  2. #2
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,619

    Default

    A good question.

    They say (the reactionary right wingers that is): Let us build more jail houses. Let us give ten-year sentences for smoking pot.
    They say (the reactionary right wingers that is): There are good people and bad people. The bad people smoke pot. They neglect to go to Church. They live in the heart of the city. Yes, downtown there. It is a place of sin. It is Sodoma and Gomorrah. We, the good people, go to Church every Sunday. Our kids go to Sunday school. We live in a respectable suburb. We mow our lawn. It is tidy.

    This is a rather pessimistic ideology, don't you think?

    Then there is the optimistic ideology. They say (the left-wing progressives say that is): Let us follow Jesus. Let us give our money to the state, and the state gives it to the poor.
    So the poor can live decently and they do not need to resort to crime and sell pot and what not. Let us not build jail houses, let us build schools for the poor kids and shelters for the homeless.

    The right-wing reactionaries do not like this latter ideology. They want to give their money directly to the poor, so that nobody can see they give nothing to the poor. This is sheer pessimism. If you do not believe in your own good heart how can you believe in the good heart of the other people?

  3. #3
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Sure, the more anti-government and closer to anarchy the more pessimistic and less faith you have in people. The more anti-anything really. There's liberals who only focus on what they're against and they're the same way... doesn't add to anything.

  4. #4
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Every political ideology is both pessimistic and optimistic. Optimistic about the station of its goals, and pessimistic about its opposition. If you see the proponents of an ideology in a pattern of pessimism, maybe it's because they're constantly slapped in the face of reality.

  5. #5
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    A good question.

    They say (the reactionary right wingers that is): Let us build more jail houses. Let us give ten-year sentences for smoking pot.
    They say (the reactionary right wingers that is): There are good people and bad people. The bad people smoke pot. They neglect to go to Church. They live in the heart of the city. Yes, downtown there. It is a place of sin. It is Sodoma and Gomorrah. We, the good people, go to Church every Sunday. Our kids go to Sunday school. We live in a respectable suburb. We mow our lawn. It is tidy.

    This is a rather pessimistic ideology, don't you think?

    Then there is the optimistic ideology. They say (the left-wing progressives say that is): Let us follow Jesus. Let us give our money to the state, and the state gives it to the poor.
    So the poor can live decently and they do not need to resort to crime and sell pot and what not. Let us not build jail houses, let us build schools for the poor kids and shelters for the homeless.

    The right-wing reactionaries do not like this latter ideology. They want to give their money directly to the poor, so that nobody can see they give nothing to the poor. This is sheer pessimism. If you do not believe in your own good heart how can you believe in the good heart of the other people?
    I am a left wing progressive, but I have to note this is at best simplistic and at worst very straw man.

    The left socially tends to be optimistic towards individuals: gays getting married isn't anything sinister, just right, illegal immigrants may have some economic impact that needs some kind of regulation, but blanket dismissal or dislike isn't the answer, the drug and violence problem in the US is based on people in a bad environment, not inherently bad people who need punishment over help, etc.

    But, in other ways, they're cynical: Large healthcare corporations provide only the amount of healthcare they need to stay viable in a marketplace and care more for maximum profit vs minimum cost than anyone actually living or dying, banks will screw you and the long term economy if it makes money for them and both need regulation or even total redefinition of the system, and the rich push lower and lower tax rates for themselves even though it's money they'll never use and money the poorer people desperately need.

    Many right-wingers find the opposite: the free market is generally the best for even very crucial services and the hoi polloi tends to be distrustful and violent. Either way, it's cynical one way and optimistic the other.

    I personally find the more liberal take to be more realistic, which is what a good political ideology should be.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #6
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Yes, anarcho-capitalists are stupidly optimistic that they'll be the ones on top.

  7. #7
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    A good question.

    They say (the reactionary right wingers that is): Let us build more jail houses. Let us give ten-year sentences for smoking pot.
    They say (the reactionary right wingers that is): There are good people and bad people. The bad people smoke pot. They neglect to go to Church. They live in the heart of the city. Yes, downtown there. It is a place of sin. It is Sodoma and Gomorrah. We, the good people, go to Church every Sunday. Our kids go to Sunday school. We live in a respectable suburb. We mow our lawn. It is tidy.

    This is a rather pessimistic ideology, don't you think?

    Then there is the optimistic ideology. They say (the left-wing progressives say that is): Let us follow Jesus. Let us give our money to the state, and the state gives it to the poor.
    So the poor can live decently and they do not need to resort to crime and sell pot and what not. Let us not build jail houses, let us build schools for the poor kids and shelters for the homeless.

    The right-wing reactionaries do not like this latter ideology. They want to give their money directly to the poor, so that nobody can see they give nothing to the poor. This is sheer pessimism. If you do not believe in your own good heart how can you believe in the good heart of the other people?
    I honestly think that the two extremes of the spectrum (anarcho-captalist and true communist) are the two most idealistic, optimistic, crazy-sauce ideologies, but I see it as being especially true with the anarcho-capitalists because so many of them think they will be the ones who are rich, who will never have an accident, never get in trouble, never get sick, never get old, it boggles the mind. I think it goes hand in hand with that whole modern American trend toward unrealistic amounts of "self-esteem" despite actual capabilities or circumstances.

    Liberals could actually be perceived as somewhat pessimistic because they prepare for the worst. They see human life as risky, fraught with danger, and in need of safe-keeping.

    Of course, there are the liberals who are pacifists who don't even accept that war is a necessary evil, and yeah, I'd also call that "stupidly optimistic."

    I dunno. It can go either way. It's all about balance.

    I'm not as optimistic as I once was, which is why I have moved toward liberatarian socialist rather than traditional American liberal.

  8. #8
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I honestly think that the two extremes of the spectrum (anarcho-captalist and true communist) are the two most idealistic, optimistic, crazy-sauce ideologies, but I see it as being especially true with the anarcho-capitalists because so many of them think they will be the ones who are rich, who will never have an accident, never get in trouble, never get sick, never get old, it boggles the mind
    I agree with this so hard. I have a hard time taking hardcore communists, hardcore free-market capitalists (the pro-privatize everything breed), and additionally hardcore-anarchists seriously. It's just like I can't take really Kantian morals very seriously. On the other side, nihilism is absurdly pessimistic.

    Of course, all the groups I mentioned are also super-optimistic about certain things. Blindly so. Realism is real, optimism and pessimism are mental slants on what is.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  9. #9
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    Like the question, but its definitly hard to answer. I'd say that in the widest sense the father you advance into the right spectrum people will either vote that when they are in bad life situations, because the political content then becomes more propaganda and promises to help the unlucky. Same applies for the left spectrum but it's really different from case to case, the lieklyhood is just higher.

    If that automatically says about the voters they are pessimistic, I dunno. I wouldnt go that far to say that. Guess whats safe to say is that pessimistic voters most often to not vote in favor of huge changes. Those kind of changes that would need them even to give up a bit of their wealth, like back then when the euro was introduced, things suddenly all costed double as much as they did before (what goes back too to the strategy of shop keepers to just change the DM price to euro, tho 1 euro was 2 DM).
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #10
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I agree with this so hard. I have a hard time taking hardcore communists, hardcore free-market capitalists (the pro-privatize everything breed), and additionally hardcore-anarchists seriously. It's just like I can't take really Kantian morals very seriously. On the other side, nihilism is absurdly pessimistic.

    Of course, all the groups I mentioned are also super-optimistic about certain things. Blindly so. Realism is real, optimism and pessimism are mental slants on what is.
    Yeah true anarchy is dumb too.

    It's like ...yeah...okay. Let's all go live in the woods and be tribes now.

    I see true anarchy and free-market anarcho-capitalism as moving back into the dark ages, quite frankly. "Yes, this will work!"

    It's just ignoring simple truths about how humans will organize themselves AGAIN into something resembling GOVERNMENT and even if you privatize EVERYTHING then CORPORATIONS WILL BECOME THE GOVERNMENT. I'm just like...what the fuck don't you people get? Do you have problems with the big picture? How do you not see that it will fail for the same reason that communism failed: human nature.

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] INFJ or INFP: what type is more compatible with ENFP?
    By pinkgraffiti in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-27-2015, 09:05 AM
  2. Modern Political Ideologies, Pessimism and Optimism
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 02-16-2010, 07:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO