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  1. #11
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's just ignoring simple truths about how humans will organize themselves AGAIN into something resembling GOVERNMENT and even if you privatize EVERYTHING then CORPORATIONS WILL BECOME THE GOVERNMENT. I'm just like...what the fuck don't you people get? Do you have problems with the big picture? How do you not see that it will fail for the same reason that communism failed: human nature.
    Totally agree. I've gotta admit I really, really like the idea of communism, but they've got to be incredibly naive and optimistic to believe it's going to work in real life. Yes, everyone let's share now okay? I mean, siblings have problems sharing...
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'm interested in this really to see how the big I of formal ideology lines up with the small i of the personal dealings "ideology" which people are likely to deploy in their dealings with others often unconsciously, in the UK at least conservative philosophers have cornered the market on what is essentially popular pessimism and suggested it is a keystone of their politics to have low or no expectations of either people/individuals or institutions, at least government ones.

    However, I know some personally who are pretty affable and friendly and have all sorts of interests which I'd not associate with that kind of ideology. I'm aware of some contradictions myself, I'm not infavour of benefits but I am personally generous sometimes. Although perhaps religion has influenced me more than politics and there certain continuities between my religious norms and values and my political ones.

    This thread is really an extention of the "would you sleep with an athiest?" one, I'm beginning to wonder were the cross overs between politics and daily life are and in an age without politics what politics does daily life create and when a huge gap exists between a political creedo and daily life how did it become embedded and how does it endure.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Totally agree. I've gotta admit I really, really like the idea of communism, but they've got to be incredibly naive and optimistic to believe it's going to work in real life. Yes, everyone let's share now okay? I mean, siblings have problems sharing...
    Yeah, totally agree. If everyone could actually get on board and not take advantage, it'd be great. Hell, so would total free-market capitalism. And Kantian morals, where violence or antagonism is 100% NEVER JUSTIFIED, which works really great, on the simple condition that every single person in the world works by that standard.

    Ironically, Ayn Rand hated Kant, and I find her ideas just as moronically optimistic (well, they're either stupidly optimistic or actively dislike any kind of morality).
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    However, I know some personally who are pretty affable and friendly and have all sorts of interests which I'd not associate with that kind of ideology. I'm aware of some contradictions myself, I'm not infavour of benefits but I am personally generous sometimes. Although perhaps religion has influenced me more than politics and there certain continuities between my religious norms and values and my political ones.
    I can get along quite well with certain conservatives and even the anarcho-capitalist libertarians in their milder forms, when they aren't as extremist, and they're actually very nice people with views different from my own.

    This thread is really an extention of the "would you sleep with an athiest?" one, I'm beginning to wonder were the cross overs between politics and daily life are and in an age without politics what politics does daily life create and when a huge gap exists between a political creedo and daily life how did it become embedded and how does it endure.
    But as you mention with the "would you sleep with an atheist" thread, I have no clue how I'd have a romantic relationship with some hardcore conservative, especially one that was extremely socially conservative, or an anarcho-capitalist who really thought privatizing everything was the magical solution to the world's woes. I wouldn't really respect either one in the long term in an intimate relationship, even though I could be friends with someone like that.

    If it comes down to sleeping with people, I'd rather range from moderate liberal to moderate conservative, and by conservative I mean old school fiscal republican without all of the crazy tea party douchiness, or any talk about god and how he hates homos.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    If it comes down to sleeping with people . . .
    Doesn't it always?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Doesn't it always?
    Freudianism really?

  7. #17
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Freudianism really?
    Also, joking. I guess the two aren't mutually exclusive.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #18
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I am a left wing progressive, but I have to note this is at best simplistic and at worst very straw man.

    The left socially tends to be optimistic towards individuals: gays getting married isn't anything sinister, just right, illegal immigrants may have some economic impact that needs some kind of regulation, but blanket dismissal or dislike isn't the answer, the drug and violence problem in the US is based on people in a bad environment, not inherently bad people who need punishment over help, etc.

    But, in other ways, they're cynical: Large healthcare corporations provide only the amount of healthcare they need to stay viable in a marketplace and care more for maximum profit vs minimum cost than anyone actually living or dying, banks will screw you and the long term economy if it makes money for them and both need regulation or even total redefinition of the system, and the rich push lower and lower tax rates for themselves even though it's money they'll never use and money the poorer people desperately need.

    Many right-wingers find the opposite: the free market is generally the best for even very crucial services and the hoi polloi tends to be distrustful and violent. Either way, it's cynical one way and optimistic the other.

    I personally find the more liberal take to be more realistic, which is what a good political ideology should be.
    I do not get this.
    What is a liberal take? What do you mean by word liberal?

    Do large healthcare corporations represent the left? In what sense?

    You did not get what I said either. It is all right.

  9. #19
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I honestly think that the two extremes of the spectrum (anarcho-captalist and true communist) are the two most idealistic, optimistic, crazy-sauce ideologies, but I see it as being especially true with the anarcho-capitalists because so many of them think they will be the ones who are rich, who will never have an accident, never get in trouble, never get sick, never get old, it boggles the mind. I think it goes hand in hand with that whole modern American trend toward unrealistic amounts of "self-esteem" despite actual capabilities or circumstances.

    Liberals could actually be perceived as somewhat pessimistic because they prepare for the worst. They see human life as risky, fraught with danger, and in need of safe-keeping.

    Of course, there are the liberals who are pacifists who don't even accept that war is a necessary evil, and yeah, I'd also call that "stupidly optimistic."

    I dunno. It can go either way. It's all about balance.

    I'm not as optimistic as I once was, which is why I have moved toward liberatarian socialist rather than traditional American liberal.
    I take it you mean anarchist socialist.
    I agree in much of what you say. Maybe all of it.
    I am an anarchist socialist myself. Socialist bureaucracy creates capitalist enterprise. It is self defeating.

  10. #20
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    I've come to believe that any Ideological group, in thinking they hold the solutions to society's problems, is fundamentally engaging in fantasy-- & are at worst completely delusional, but not necessarily optimistic. Optimism or pessimism comes into play in how the Ideology is expressed, by groups or individuals, or it may ebb & flow with time or as Gingko said its believers will become optimistic about their Ideas while pessimistic about broader society & their opposition.

    Short-term political efforts like election campaigns, reform initiatives, & uprisings can tap into optimism & pessimism, but any long-term Ideology (i.e. not a collection of different individual beliefs or values but a dogmatic 'ism') has to be rooted in something deeper-- usually people's wish to have "the answers" or to think things could be easily fixed. People are drawn to them in the same way they're drawn to fantasies of omnipotence or idealized love, & I remember reading somewhere how Ideologically-dogmatic people actually do mirror the behavior of paranoid schizophrenics when forced to confront evidence going against their beliefs.

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