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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Well I do know that tattoos can be attractive. Why wouldn't you want to make your child more attractive? I honestly can't see any reason why we shouldn't arbitrarily tattoo babies. Besides, unlike circumcision, tattoos are totally reversible
    That is what I thought, circumcision is a different question for me, in males I dont believe it causes any harm, the practices which I have heard described as female circumcision are akin to castration and so I would consider them wrong outright.

    Tattoos ARE reversable, the sorts of things which I've read about are different from the "thug life" tats or pop culture tats or fool things like that, mind you getting encouraged to get a Maori face tat too early in life could be a major mistake. Although like I said before if you live in a family were everyone looks that way, the neighbours do too and its part of your culture it would be different.

    Perhaps a private RFID card or biometric chipping would turn out more popular for those that can afford it to opt into than tag tattoos but I would imagine that that kind of tattoo would be different from a cosmetic variety, although since I posted this thread even I've had some great discussions with friends about the sinister parallels with the tattoos which the nazis used during the holocaust.

  2. #22
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's funny because you've lampooned the parallel between American liberalism and neglectful parenting by using extreme examples pretty well.
    There's a parallel only in the same sense that there's parallel between American Conservatism and abusive parenting. (i.e., many "good" things taken to extremes are "bad")
    -end of thread-

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    No, I was trying to double-quote you and gink at one time and it failed. People tend to disagree on what a "beneficial result" is. If, as in Lark's example, someone would be stigmatized by a lack of tattoos wouldn't it be beneficial for that individual to be tattooed, regardless of a little pain?
    Which is a point that should be considered.

    Still, the question is more, where do we draw the line? (For kids who are older suffering peer pressure, couldn't people apply the same logic to demand some more level of conformity against the child's natural inclinations/wishes?) It's the same logic used to assign intersexed kids a physical gender, in order that they fit in... and then when they're adults, it seems many of them are pissed off because they would have rather been left alone to make that decision for themselves.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    There's a parallel only in the same sense that there's parallel between American Conservatism and abusive parenting. (i.e., many "good" things taken to extremes are "bad")
    Well, I think that American liberalism is different from liberalism per se, perhaps its clearer when you know what I'm talking about. I dont know what American conservative parenting is like.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I'm all for tattooing infants, but only if it's a tattoo of a foreskin or clitoris.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, I think that American liberalism is different from liberalism per se, perhaps its clearer when you know what I'm talking about. I dont know what American conservative parenting is like.
    I'm not sure what you're picturing, but I figured you were saying that "American liberalism" falls to the "discipline less" side of the scale which could be taken to negative extremes (neglect), so I wanted to point out that the more Conservative angle of "discipline more" can also be taken to a negative extreme, like beating your children (which a minority of conservatives think is totally ok "put the fear of god in em" and so on).

    Whereas there's a "good" range somewhere in the middle, with sometimes histrionic disagreement as to where exactly the edges of that range lie.
    -end of thread-

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm not sure what you're picturing, but I figured you were saying that "American liberalism" falls to the "discipline less" side of the scale which could be taken to negative extremes (neglect), so I wanted to point out that the more Conservative angle of "discipline more" can also be taken to a negative extreme, like beating your children (which a minority of conservatives think is totally ok "put the fear of god in em" and so on).

    Whereas there's a "good" range somewhere in the middle, with sometimes histrionic disagreement as to where exactly the edges of that range lie.
    I hadnt considered that particular dichotomy, it wasnt discipline less or discipline more so much as dont discipline at all or no one knows better or different from anyone else so dont even judge.

  8. #28
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Which is a point that should be considered.

    Still, the question is more, where do we draw the line? (For kids who are older suffering peer pressure, couldn't people apply the same logic to demand some more level of conformity against the child's natural inclinations/wishes?) It's the same logic used to assign intersexed kids a physical gender, in order that they fit in... and then when they're adults, it seems many of them are pissed off because they would have rather been left alone to make that decision for themselves.
    Most of what people learn as children isn't a conscious decision on the part of the child. I think the example of older kids being pressured, but not wanting to take part in certain cultural practices is relevant to a degree, but an older kid is going to have the experience and sense of self required to make decisions about which parts of a culture are desirable and which are not. A younger kid will most likely go along with the protocol established by the parents and older members of the group, even if they have some unvoiced questions or reservations about it. They simply do not have the knowledge/experience to challenge cultural norms.

    As for the older kids, if they want to think and behave in a way that pleases them but displeases the group, then they will deal with the consequences, even if that means migrating elsewhere. In my family-tribe kids are expected to go along with the accepted religion, traditions and behavior that the parents believe is appropriate(going to college, attending mass, avoiding drugs/sex/rock'n'roll, etc). Once the children are out of college they can do whatever they want(although it may still irritate the elders), this is how a group with a common culture works - the elders decide the rules, the youth follow the rules at first and fine-tune, dispose of, keep the rules as they mature and identify which rules are necessary and which are arbitrary/useless.

    Subsequent generations are never carbon copies of previous generations and those changes are usually opposed by conservative members of a group. Societies "work" because of conformity and suppression of some desires/inclinations/wishes/dreams/etc that are incompatible with the norm. It's easy to observe this kind of conflict if you know any 1st/2nd generation immigrants. I'm only sharing my perspective, not making any moral judgments about whether it is right or wrong for every individual to go along with what society demands of them. I'm a bit of a black sheep, too, and I've been dealing with the consequences of my actions for the past ten years. It's difficult at times, but overall I'm happier. It's better to be an honest outcast than to accept and conform simply to fit in better. I think anyone with a strong ego would rather break out of the confines of cultural norms than suppress their personal identity, but they shouldn't expect others to understand or approve.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  9. #29
    Senior Member Snail's Avatar
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    I am against genital mutilation (including male circumcision), tattooing, piercing, or performing any kind of elective cosmetic surgery on a body that is not my own unless I have that person's meaningful consent. If the person is not old enough to give meaningful consent, or is disabled in such a way that obtaining consent is impossible, then it is an especially violative act that denies the other person's basic right to own his or her body.

    http://www.actforyouth.net/resources...brain_0502.pdf Here is some information about adolescent brain development, for those who think teenagers are capable of meaningful consent. This is a fuzzy area, whereas with infants, it is not ambiguous at all.

  10. #30
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Would I tattoo a baby?! NFW. While the ears piercing argument is a good one, I think a tiny hole in the ear is different from a big butterfly (or other) draped across one's leg. I would not pierce the ears of my baby either, but I would probably allow my kids to do it early - say around age 9. The tattoos would have to wait. I think a person needs to be 16 or so before they decide they want to permanently ink themselves, and I would have to approve the tattoo. Me- I have no tattoos and don't want any. It's too committal. I don't think I want to look at the same image on my body everyday for 40 years.
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