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  1. #531
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    That is insane. I'm sorry, but it is. I would like to see any man try to take my days-old baby from me and strap it to a board and cut any part of its body off. I ABSOLUTELY will fight to have a voice in the matter of my child's bodily integrity, regardless of the child's gender.
    I can't really argue against that. But most American women (like Marmie Dearest) have the opposite view. They want their sons mutilated because it looks "prettier".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is actually doing the opposite. "Do not cut off part of your child's body!" A very simple and sensible rule. No, there are not enough do-nots to turn what is left into the-way-the-government-wants-you-to-raise-your-children.

    A friend told me that, purely legally speaking, the verdict is entirely uncontroversial.
    Foreskin isn't your penis or scrotum, it's more akin to taking out someone's tonsils, adenoids, or appendix - all things that aren't terribly crucial to the body's function, and can in fact increase disease. Some parents have tonsils removed as a preventative measure, and having foreskin removed could be classified as a preventative measure.

    And if it does no sexual or psychological damage, then what I think is going on here is actually a bunch of ADULT MEN projecting their own ADULT DIGNITY and SEXUAL OWNERSHIP of their ADULT PENIS on to newborn boys.

    @Lateralus

    No, I am not "flippant about many things" I simply have different values than you, in fact some people who know me would say I defend my own values too fiercely, so really, you just made an incorrect statement.

    It's just that I weigh things in terms of real harm and real consequences, and I don't see real harm or real consequences here; primarily I see a cultural or moral preference which should be left up to the parents.

    To use your own argument against you (that you get to argue about penises since you have one) ... I had my ears pierced as a child and never once thought it was a bad thing, in my entire life, and like I said as a teenager pierced my ears more. I also had braces, which are only really used for aesthetic reasons on children 99% of the time, which can cut and scar the inside of the mouth...I still don't feel like I was abused.

    As someone who lost my hymen naturally, I would not be opposed to changing my past by having had it surgically removed as a younger child, if that were physically possible.

    The hymen really only seems to serve the purpose as to alert a sexual partner or parent that the child is a virgin. It otherwise is just something that causes pain and annoyance, and keeps teenaged girls or adult women from wearing tampons or menstrual cups to take care of their period.

    I'm not talking shit about uncircumcised men at all, but on the other hand I don't think this is such a big dramatic issue that we need to outlaw it. San Francisco in my opinion goes too far with liberalism, it's very extreme.

  3. #533
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    No, I am not "flippant about many things" I simply have different values than you, in fact some people who know me would say I defend my own values too fiercely, so really, you just made an incorrect statement.
    You sure fooled me with how blaise you've been about male genital mutilation.

    It's just that I weigh things in terms of real harm and real consequences, and I don't see real harm or real consequences here; primarily I see a cultural or moral preference which should be left up to the parents.
    Has the actual harm ever been measured? I doubt it. I can't imagine any uncircumcised adult males allowing themselves to be mutilated for a scientific experiment.

    To use your own argument against you (that you get to argue about penises since you have one) ... I had my ears pierced as a child and never once thought it was a bad thing, in my entire life, and like I said as a teenager pierced my ears more. I also had braces, which are only really used for aesthetic reasons on children 99% of the time, which can cut and scar the inside of the mouth...I still don't feel like I was abused.
    Piercings are not permanent, neither are braces. These are silly arguments that I never brought up in the first place, but you keep trying to use them.

    As someone who lost my hymen naturally, I would not be opposed to changing my past by having had it surgically removed as a younger child, if that were physically possible.

    The hymen really only seems to serve the purpose as to alert a sexual partner or parent that the child is a virgin. It otherwise is just something that causes pain and annoyance, and keeps teenaged girls or adult women from wearing tampons or menstrual cups to take care of their period.
    Don't care. Really, I'm not interested in your sexual history. And women can deal with that issue. My opinion (not that I have one) is irrelevant because I'm not female.

    I'm not talking shit about uncircumcised men at all, but on the other hand I don't think this is such a big dramatic issue that we need to outlaw it. San Francisco in my opinion goes too far with liberalism, it's very extreme.
    Again, I never argued that it should be outlawed. I just don't believe your opinion is in any way relevant, regardless of how adamant you are about it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #534
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Foreskin isn't your penis or scrotum, it's more akin to taking out someone's tonsils, adenoids, or appendix - all things that aren't terribly crucial to the body's function, and can in fact increase disease. Some parents have tonsils removed as a preventative measure, and having foreskin removed could be classified as a preventative measure.
    Equating Tonsils, Adenoids, and Appendix to the Foreskin.

    First of all, the first three are considered "internal" procedures (with Appendix being the most invasive.)
    Second, you are ignoring the fact we guys can move our foreskin around to clean it every time we take a bath/shower. The foreskin is unlike the Tonsils, Adenoids, and Appendix in that these three aren't movable unless you do a procedure on them. The assumption that uncircumcised = dirty is a often mistaken one.

    It is only a hindrance if you don't clean yourself when you take a shower. Otherwise, it is a protective layer to protect it from rubbing against abrasive material.

  5. #535
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    1. I think ear piercing little girls is child abuse.
    2. Ear piercing is not permanent.
    3. It annoys me how flippant women are about male genital mutilation.
    Ear piercing is permenant. There is scarring.
    No, not flippant. Just seeing the issue in proportion to the personal and social consequences. I know guys who actually prefer to have a circumscion (having had it done later in life.)
    And sorry, male genital mutilation? Drama queen much? Women are flippant for a reason, having to endure a barrage of comestic procedures, just to be considered attractive. That's without going into the murky areas of cosmetic surgery, oh and female circumscion.
    Dispense with the hysterical hyperbole, and I might actually take you seriously. It's a procedure that actually might have a social benefit, and as far as I know, very little personal inconvenience to the child involved.
    Comparing it to abortion, or female circumscion doesn't help the the cause. It boarders on slightly ridiculous then.
    Or just don't have the procedure done on your kids.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  6. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Equating Tonsils, Adenoids, and Appendix to the Foreskin.

    First of all, the first three are considered "internal" procedures (with Appendix being the most invasive.)
    Second, you are ignoring the fact we guys can move our foreskin around to clean it every time we take a bath/shower. The foreskin is unlike the Tonsils, Adenoids, and Appendix in that these three aren't movable unless you do a procedure on them. The assumption that uncircumcised = dirty is a often mistaken one.

    It is only a hindrance if you don't clean yourself when you take a shower. Otherwise, it is a protective layer to protect it from rubbing against abrasive material.
    Thanks for making my argument even more effective - removing the foreskin isn't even as invasive as taking out those tonsils that many people happily walk around without (and probably don't get strep throat very often!)

    I've gone down on both circumcised and uncircumcised men, as well as women, and I can honestly say that that uncircumcised men are the most problematic because they've got this flimsy piece of skin you could rip off with your teeth, and their moist parts go all the way to the back of the throat which is much germier than sticking your lips and tip of your tongue on a woman's vaginal area, even though they both have the same potential to harbor bacteria because of the moistness.

    So yeah uncircumcised men still, to me, are the most annoying in terms of oral sex, even compared to women.

  7. #537
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Don't care. Really, I'm not interested in your sexual history. And women can deal with that issue. My opinion (not that I have one) is irrelevant because I'm not female.
    Who's flippant?
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  8. #538
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Thanks for making my argument even more effective - removing the foreskin isn't even as invasive as taking out those tonsils that many people happily walk around without (and probably don't get strep throat very often!
    Making your argument more effective? Lol

    There is a reason to be taking out the tonsils, appendix, and adenoids -That is when they become problematic.

    There is absolutely no reason to cut up the foreskin unless you don't know how to clean.

    That is the argument that is helping yours to be more "effective."

  9. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You sure fooled me with how blaise you've been about male genital mutilation.
    I think you're melodramatic.


    Has the actual harm ever been measured? I doubt it. I can't imagine any uncircumcised adult males allowing themselves to be mutilated for a scientific experiment.
    If there isn't visible serious physical or mental harm, I'm really unmoved. You can't even say to me what that might be. Right there is an indication to me that your argument is melodrama. Like First World Problems - White Whine.


    Piercings are not permanent, neither are braces. These are silly arguments that I never brought up in the first place, but you keep trying to use them.
    Actually you did bring up piercings, and you are wrong, piercings are permanent, I don't know what planet you live on, but I still have the ear hole piercings I had as a small child, two more than I put in as a fourteen year old, and also a hole in my right nostril that I put there as an 18 year old.

    I also don't know what planet you live on where you think the effects of braces aren't permanent - I've actually had permanently altered aesthetic appearance to my teeth because of wearing braces (which is awesome!) as well as having to have a root canal because of the impact of braces on one of my teeth (I still don't hold it against my grandparents in the slightest, and are thankful to them for paying for my braces). I also have some scars in the back of mouth from wearing linguals.

    You are just full of misinformation and melodrama! In fact, I would say that piercing is more comparable to circumcision than braces, because braces, although they can cause permanent scarring like circumcision, actually cause MORE LONG TERM PAIN than circumcision.

    And again, the function of braces is almost entirely aesthetic. But you're okay with that, huh? Because we're not talking about YOUR DICK!!!1111



    Don't care. Really, I'm not interested in your sexual history. And women can deal with that issue. My opinion (not that I have one) is irrelevant because I'm not female.
    They don't have to. They can elect not to sleep with you.


    Again, I never argued that it should be outlawed. I just don't believe your opinion is in any way relevant, regardless of how adamant you are about it.
    Oh then your opinion on the piercing of girls' ears is irrelevant, so you really should shut up about it, by your own logic.

    Whoo hoo!

  10. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Making your argument more effective? Lol

    There is a reason to be taking out the tonsils, appendix, and adenoids -That is when they become problematic.

    There is absolutely no reason to cut up the foreskin unless you don't know how to clean.

    That is the argument that is helping yours to be more "effective."
    No actually, it's not. I'm thrilled my grandparents got me braces, I wish they had made me get my tonsils removed, and I know men who are grateful they were circumcised as babies so they don't have to do it themselves as adults.

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