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  1. #511
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Define damage, here.

    Explain to me in plain language why the damage caused by the procedure is so egregious that it requires gov't intervention.

    I understand your reasons, and to a very limited extent identify with them, but there are much better ways to go about social change on things like this (in the US) than legislation.
    I do not see those options, or am concern about their existence at all. If they exist, however, perhaps the message sent by the ruling will serve as a trigger for them to come forth, reducing the legislation effort.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Agreed, which is why framing this in terms of perceptible harm does not adequately address the ethical concerns many people have with the practice.
    Does that ethical concern give them the right to force others to act in a way that would make them happy.

    I don't think it does.

    This is probably an impasse for us.

    At this time, you're correct, but that has less to do with constitutional protection of religious belief and practice, and more to do with prevailing social mores. The Supreme Court ruled that Mormons could not practice plural marriage, even though it was consensual, and that the Amish had to send their children to compulsory education up to 8th Grade.
    Which is why I said that
    I understand your reasons, and to a very limited extent identify with them, but there are much better ways to go about social change on things like this (in the US) than legislation.
    It's more of a cultural thing. If this is such a big deal, try to change the cultural opinions involved. Until you've done that, trying to legislate is a fool's errand.

    This whole thing seems rather like some are making a mountain out of a mole hill, but that's just my opinion.

  3. #513
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    "Making a T-shirt out of a turtleneck" is a more apt analogy IMO.

  4. #514
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Why is the opinion of the father worth more than the opinion of the mother? Neither one of them owns the organ in question, and both are equally responsible for the child. Comparing it to abortion isn't really relevant because in the case of abortion, the person making the decision is the person who owns the uterus.

    Also, in this thread (and in general) there seem to be a lot of men who feel very strongly pro-circ as well as a lot of women who are against it (and vice-versa). It doesn't really seem to be dividing along gender lines, although it does make sense for the men to have a stronger opinion either way.
    I thought I was pretty clear before. Because a woman does not have a penis, she cannot possibly be forced to undergo male circumcision, therefore she has no right to force it upon a male child. Men don't have uteri, therefore they have no right to force a woman to not have an abortion.

    I think your point about the issue not being divided along gender lines is irrelevant. Abortion is not divided upon those lines either. Many women are pro-life and many men are pro-choice. Some of the most militant pro-lifers I have ever met have been women.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #515
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    childbirth should also be illegal, children don't get to choose to be born.
    Whoops.

  6. #516
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought I was pretty clear before. Because a woman does not have a penis, she cannot possibly be forced to undergo male circumcision, therefore she has no right to force it upon a male child. Men don't have uteri, therefore they have no right to force a woman to not have an abortion.
    And if the woman thinks her child shouldn't be mutilated but her spouse does, her opinion is worthless because she doesn't have a penis and is therefore completely incapable of understanding anything penis-related? Men have no right to force women to not have an abortion, and neither do other women - owning a body part doesn't give you any authority over anyone else's body parts.

    I think your point about the issue not being divided along gender lines is irrelevant. Abortion is not divided upon those lines either. Many women are pro-life and many men are pro-choice. Some of the most militant pro-lifers I have ever met have been women.
    That was aimed more at your comment about "women being alarmingly flippant about it" or something along those lines. Couldn't find the actual quote.
    -end of thread-

  7. #517
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    And if the woman thinks her child shouldn't be mutilated but her spouse does, her opinion is worthless because she doesn't have a penis and is therefore completely incapable of understanding anything penis-related? Men have no right to force women to not have an abortion, and neither do other women - owning a body part doesn't give you any authority over anyone else's body parts.
    The woman's opinion is irrelevant when it comes to male circumcision.

    As for abortion, you women can work that out amongst yourselves. I want nothing to do with it. You won't find me trolling an abortion thread telling women what they should or shouldn't do.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #518
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The woman's opinion is irrelevant when it comes to male circumcision.

    As for abortion, you women can work that out amongst yourselves. I want nothing to do with it. You won't find me trolling an abortion thread telling women what they should or shouldn't do.
    Whoops.

  9. #519
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yes, you can. Regardless of religious belief, polygamy is still illegal in all Western countries. Scientology is still an illegal, dangerous cult in Germany.

    Furthermore, there is no reasonable process of learning when it comes to religion. You can tell a woman how harmful wearing the burqa is for her, but that doesn't matter if she believes that it is what God wills that she do. You can explain to parents that slicing their child's penis raises several moral and ethical concerns, but that doesn't matter if they believe it is necessary to seal him into God's covenant with Israel.



    While there is an effect, that is not the point I think many of us are trying to make. That point is that the child, as someone who is, or will be, a rational being, will have the capacity to make this sort of decision on his own terms one day. It disrespects him and his potentiality as a rational actor, and violates his physical integrity, for parents to make this permanent decision without the child's consent. That's what I previously meant by it being an affront to his dignity.
    I have learnt that clinging to hope sometimes is the only thing you can do. and i was thaught that by an american.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #520
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    look, we all know that uncircumcised shmocks are gross, but we also know that we should never tell people that their body is gross because they will be offended... and we also know that this really is a can of worms because it leads us to ask, should parents be able to tattoo their babies? and the answer is... argh, probably,maybe, ah, argh, stupid parents, argh.

    but can anyone envision how awesome the underground brit milah movie will be? no longer just a mohel, he is now hunted by the law, a social outcast, for he is....

    The Foreskin slayer
    now in 3D

    thus, this jew votes in favor of the ban, for while you can move out of san fransico, you can not move out of the sad sad reality in which that movie will not be made.

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