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  1. #491
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The operative phrase in that sentence is "to me".
    To me, the operative is not seeking self-serving demagogy, but instead what is the most universally neutral, unbiased, and supportive path.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    To me, the operative is not seeking self-serving demagogy, but instead what is the most universally neutral, unbiased, and supportive path.
    Your opinion is no more a universal truth than mine is.

    Reasonable people disagree all the time.

  3. #493
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Your opinion is no more a universal truth than mine is.

    Reasonable people disagree all the time.
    Opinions are like assholes; Everyone has one, and most stink. I'm referring to safeguarding the integrity of the child vs one's ego. Otherwise, it's why "no critical thinking at schools to discourage defying authority" shit gets not only put together, but shoved down people's throats without effort.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #494
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Scientology is still an illegal, dangerous cult in Germany.
    No, it isn't. Let's not spread even more rumours, please!

    It is a perfectly legal organization in Germany. I see their info tables in public places all the time. Back in the 90s when I lived in the USA people approched me and said "hey, I heard scientologists can't be teachers in Germany. What's up with that?" The answer? There was a case of one school teacher who kept trying to indoctrinate her students with her religion. Public schools however are secular and religiously neutral. So she was transferred to an administrative job at the ministry of education where she would cause less damage. That was all. Scientology sold this as "OMG, the nazis are back and they are after us!"

    In France and Germany they are considered a dangerous sect, that much is true. And the German Federal Office For The Protection Of The Constitution is observing them as a possibly anti-constitutional organization (just as they observe nazi organizations, islamist extremists, etc).

    In Switzerland they are regarded as a corporation, not a religion (because their main goal is to suck money from their member's pockets) and they corporate tax rather than being tax exempt like other religions. There is no official procedure for being recognized as a religion but while Scientology is de facto recognized in the US most Western European countries have their doubt and consider them somewhere between a crazy sect and a corrupt company trying to turn peopl's naivity into cash.
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  5. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    I'm referring to safeguarding the integrity of the child vs one's ego. Otherwise, it's why "no critical thinking at schools to discourage defying authority" shit gets not only put together, but shoved down people's throats without effort.
    Which is also your opinion.

    Just because you're discussing a more grand cultural construct does not make your opinion of said construct objectively right.

    More to the point could you go into greater detail with what you're saying there.

    I don't think I'm going to end up agreeing with whatever your explanation ends up being, but I'm terribly interested in what explanation might be.

  6. #496
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    No, it isn't. Let's not spread even more rumours, please!

    It is a perfectly legal organization in Germany. I see their info tables in public places all the time. Back in the 90s when I lived in the USA people approched me and said "hey, I heard scientologists can't be teachers in Germany. What's up with that?" The answer? There was a case of one school teacher who kept trying to indoctrinate her students with her religion. Public schools however are secular and religiously neutral. So she was transferred to an administrative job at the ministry of education where she would cause less damage. That was all. Scientology sold this as "OMG, the nazis are back and they are after us!"

    In France and Germany they are considered a dangerous sect, that much is true. And the German Federal Office For The Protection Of The Constitution is observing them as a possibly anti-constitutional organization (just as they observe nazi organizations, islamist extremists, etc).

    In Switzerland they are regarded as a corporation, not a religion (because their main goal is to suck money from their member's pockets) and they corporate tax rather than being tax exempt like other religions. There is no official procedure for being recognized as a religion but while Scientology is de facto recognized in the US most Western European countries have their doubt and consider them somewhere between a crazy sect and a corrupt company trying to turn peopl's naivity into cash.
    Good to know, thanks!

  7. #497
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The gov't making this illegal would set (in my mind) a frightening precedent about how comfortable we are giving the gov't the right to tell people how to raise their kids.
    It is actually doing the opposite. "Do not cut off part of your child's body!" A very simple and sensible rule. No, there are not enough do-nots to turn what is left into the-way-the-government-wants-you-to-raise-your-children.

    A friend told me that, purely legally speaking, the verdict is entirely uncontroversial.

  8. #498
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Which is also your opinion.

    Just because you're discussing a more grand cultural construct does not make your opinion of said construct objectively right.

    More to the point could you go into greater detail with what you're saying there.

    I don't think I'm going to end up agreeing with whatever your explanation ends up being, but I'm terribly interested in what explanation might be.
    There isn't anything to add really. To quote a rep I got: "Any other view other than safeguarding the physical integrity, holds the child as the property of either the parents or the religion".
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #499
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    What if your religion calls for female circumcision AKA Female Genital Mutilation?


    The state obviously feels that it can interfere if some sort of harm is quantitatively being done to its constituents. Maybe FGM is too extreme by US standards, but male circumcision has comne under fire a lot recently -- basically it no longer offers additional protection against the spread of disease, based on our quality of cleanliness in the US and our medical system, and you are cutting off healthy tissue with nerve endings and discarding it for no apparent reason except as a religious practice on the level of Christian communion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    There isn't anything to add really. To quote a rep I got: "Any other view other than safeguarding the physical integrity, holds the child as the property of either the parents or the religion".
    No it doesn't, and assuming that is fairly hyperbolic.

    No one here is confusing parenthood with slavery. And no one is proposing that people own their children in any monetary or commercial sense.

    The amount of harm caused in this situation doesn't warrant government intervention. And the amount of legislative time and taxpayer $$ it would cost to enforce this.

    The crux of the issue here, is how far does the right of parents to decide what is right for their kids extend.

    It's been said that I can make no pronouncements about how little material affect circumcision has on someone because I have not known what it is to be both circumcised and uncircumcised as an adult.

    While it is true that I can make no pronouncements about how great it is to be uncircumcised (oh what an orgy of pleasure and awesomeness my life would be if I had my foreskin), I can say that at no point in my entire life have I felt any negative effects (either cultural or physical) from being circumcised.

    I don't feel mutilated, or victimized, or really that much at all about it to be perfectly honest.

    The foundation of your argument seems to be, that it should be illegal to submit one's offspring to something painful, if that painful thing can't be shown to be necessary in any substantive sense.

    I'm saying that babies don't remember, and don't care generally (and haven't even really developed sentience at that point). I also am a fan of parents having the right to (within reason) make decisions for their child. Even if occasionally those decisions have temporarily painful implications.

    Does this mean that I think some crazy pentacostal somewhere should be allowed to force his child to handle poisonous snakes?

    Hell no.

    I am just saying that the harm done by this practice doesn't warrant gov't intervention. Or more precisely, that this procedure does not meet the threshold of harm that I would require for the government to be able to make it illegal for parents to choose for their children.

    Lastly, if they ever try to legislate this in the US, the constitutionality of the law would be questioned so fast, on freedom of religion grounds, that your head would spin.

    That challenge would go to SCOTUS, and I have no crystal ball, but I would be highly surprised if the court did not overturn it.

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