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  1. #481
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The question is where does parental authority to make decisions on behalf of their child end.

    And at one point that parental authority ends and becomes subservient to the bodily autonomy of the child.
    I think the question is about the restrictions that should be set on parental authority. I'm not sure what those should exactly be, but the prevention of physical modification which affects the child to and past the point where his parents lose their authority over him (whenever that may be) seems like a good idea.

  2. #482
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    I don't think this procedure effects the child in a way that should necessitate that the procedure be made illegal.

    Like I said earlier, I have no problem with it being performed on young babies.

    As the child ages the calculation changes.

    The gov't making this illegal would set (in my mind) a frightening precedent about how comfortable we are giving the gov't the right to tell people how to raise their kids.

  3. #483
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I don't think this procedure effects the child in a way that should necessitate that the procedure be made illegal.

    Like I said earlier, I have no problem with it being performed on young babies.

    As the child ages the calculation changes.

    The gov't making this illegal would set (in my mind) a frightening precedent about how comfortable we are giving the gov't the right to tell people how to raise their kids.
    Epileptic Warning: the comment ahead may damage your brain if you have strong personal values that super-seed logic:


    To me, the premise of guarantee of physical integrity is the only relevant argument all by itself.

    /warning

    /thread
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #484
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    , my ability to enjoy sex
    Well, you don't know how it's like to have one, so you can't tell. Or, to be more specific: you cannot objectively compare the two potential states.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #485
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Why do people compare circumscion with abortion? They are two very different procedures, and ethically, one has essentially bigger consequences both socially and personally. It's comparing apples, with basket balls.
    It's probably more apt to compare circumscion with ear piercing little baby girls. Both are cosmetic in nature.

    I have no opinion either way.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  6. #486
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    Why do people compare circumscion with abortion? They are two very different procedures, and ethically, one has essentially bigger consequences both socially and personally. It's comparing apples, with basket balls.
    It's probably more apt to compare circumscion with ear piercing little baby girls. Both are cosmetic in nature.

    I have no opinion either way.
    1. I think ear piercing little girls is child abuse.
    2. Ear piercing is not permanent.
    3. It annoys me how flippant women are about male genital mutilation.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #487
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    I think the question is about the restrictions that should be set on parental authority. I'm not sure what those should exactly be, but the prevention of physical modification which affects the child to and past the point where his parents lose their authority over him (whenever that may be) seems like a good idea.
    My problem with that is that one is entering murky territory here, it might seem far removed from circumcision but I am thinking about issues like correcting your child's teeth, whitening them etc, would the parents not be allowed to have these procedures done to their child too because they are permanent? I hate the term nanny-state but that's what comes to mind when thinking about the banning of circumcision.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    Why do people compare circumscion with abortion? They are two very different procedures, and ethically, one has essentially bigger consequences both socially and personally. It's comparing apples, with basket balls.
    It's probably more apt to compare circumscion with ear piercing little baby girls. Both are cosmetic in nature.

    I have no opinion either way.
    I agree with that.

  8. #488
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Imo its bullshit. You cant have freedom of religion in a country and then tell religious people what to do. Same goes for the burque thing. One should rather try and integrate those people in the society and first of all accept the things one is not happy with. To then after a few years teach them how its possible to live without burques and what damage they do to woman. So a reasonable process of learning, instead of banning everything one does not understand. Those are alwyays very difficult processes and will never be easy.
    Yes, you can. Regardless of religious belief, polygamy is still illegal in all Western countries. Scientology is still an illegal, dangerous cult in Germany.

    Furthermore, there is no reasonable process of learning when it comes to religion. You can tell a woman how harmful wearing the burqa is for her, but that doesn't matter if she believes that it is what God wills that she do. You can explain to parents that slicing their child's penis raises several moral and ethical concerns, but that doesn't matter if they believe it is necessary to seal him into God's covenant with Israel.

    Imo furthermore, circumcision for boys is a good thing. First of all its way more hygenical, no more "ball cheese" when you know what I mean. Second of all it drastically reduces the chance to infect woman with your p-ness. Tho I love infecting woman with my p-ness giving them STDs sucks. And besides STDs you can just give them fungal infections. Female biosphere is much more vulnerable than the male one. Another point is phimosis. When you dont retract the foreskin of your child a couple of times when its young, there is a chance that the skin will adhere. Thats called phimosis and then your kid needs to be circumsized at all costs.
    While there is an effect, that is not the point I think many of us are trying to make. That point is that the child, as someone who is, or will be, a rational being, will have the capacity to make this sort of decision on his own terms one day. It disrespects him and his potentiality as a rational actor, and violates his physical integrity, for parents to make this permanent decision without the child's consent. That's what I previously meant by it being an affront to his dignity.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    you cannot objectively compare the two potential states.
    No more than anyone who has been uncircumcised their whole life can.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    All caps stuff
    The operative phrase in that sentence is "to me".

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