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  1. #81
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Just because gay men were part of fascist movements doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between fascism and homosexuality. Puhleez.
    Look up his interview with Jason Jones. It's priceless. Jones gets an actual historian to say there is no evidence for Hitler's homosexuality, by the way, and decides to "test" Lively's theory by going to an LBGT community meeting in ful-body armor.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Usually those who claim he wasn't are often of the "post-Left" variety who think mostly lash out at almost plenty of other leading figures within anarchism - like Murray Boochkin to give another example.
    Yeah, it's called progression and moving forward.

    Of course we need to know where we came from, but I don't adhere to this whole idea that what is old or what came first is better.

    In fact, I think that's foolish.

    Anyway, with a lack of social control, an anarchist could rightly choose to be religious and conservative and another could choose to be socially liberal.

    But at the end of the day, they'd be both able to exist in the same society because of the lack of authoritarian social control.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Look up his interview with Jason Jones. It's priceless. Jones gets an actual historian to say there is no evidence for Hitler's homosexuality, by the way, and decides to "test" Lively's theory by going to an LBGT community meeting in ful-body armor.
    Full body armor? That's comedy gold. I must look into this.

  4. #84
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've read the books on queer theory which many of the people who think its just a matter of challenging nasty, religious bullies and bigots havent. There's a lot of nasty psychology there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    There's a big different between "queer theory" and the reality of what most average gay people seem to want. You're studying a minority of academia who is fringe-element and then thinking you can assume that every gay person in the US believes the exact same thing? (Next, you might be assuming the Black Panthers' philosophy accurately encapsulates the conscious beliefs of the majority of black people in the US.)
    What is this invidious Queer Theory you both speak of? 'Cause, you know, it's pretty risky to use an entire area of academic study as a scapegoat in an attempt to find middle ground with some reactionary fuckwit.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yeah, it's called progression and moving forward.
    If you insist. Mere change and progress are not the same thing. Another irony also being that the very concept of "progress" is itself being left behind as being outdated. That's just on the intellectual level, even in everyday situations this is so. One example, given by historian John Lukacs, is how the term "old-fashioned" nowadays seems to carry a more positive meaning than it did a century ago. To be called an "old-fashioned gentleman" is now considered a sign of praise, wheras in the 19th century being called "old fashioned" was considered an insult.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Full body armor? That's comedy gold. I must look into this.
    Presto!

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...010/gay-reichs

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    If you insist. Mere change and progress are not the same thing. Another irony also being that the very concept of "progress" is itself being left behind as being outdated. That's just on the intellectual level, even in everyday situations this is so. One example, given by historian John Lukacs, is how the term "old-fashioned" nowadays seems to carry a more positive meaning than it did a century ago. To be called an "old-fashioned gentleman" is now considered a sign of praise, wheras in the 19th century being called "old fashioned" was considered an insult.
    Allow me to put it more bluntly: moving away from religious intolerance and mythological thinking is moving forward, in my personal opinion. I realize change and progress are not the same thing. Change can be bad. But something isn't necessarily better just by virtue of being old, or first, just like it's not necessarily better by virtue of being new.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Allow me to put it more bluntly: moving away from religious intolerance and mythological thinking is moving forward, in my personal opinion.
    I'm well aware of your opinion, you've stated it plainly many times before, and I've addressed you on many elements of your argument before too. Change and continuity are the two constants in human affairs, and you need a proper balance of both. That's what tradition is actually about, change within responsible boundaries. It's also sometimes necessary to go backwards in order to truely move forward. "Reform" after all is about returning to form, and "radical" is about going back to roots. You often need to rediscover things you may have lost along the way.

  9. #89
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm well aware of your opinion, you've stated it plainly many times before, and I've addressed you on many elements of your argument before too. Change and continuity are the two constants in human affairs, and you need a proper balance of both. That's what tradition is actually about, change within responsible boundaries. It's also sometimes necessary to go backwards in order to truely move forward. "Reform" after all is about returning to form, and "radical" is about going back to roots. You often need to rediscover things you may have lost along the way.
    So, are you being all Confucian on us and saying tradition has inherent utility?
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  10. #90
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    Sometimes I think Peguy is a very educated ISFJ. I don't mean that as an insult in any way, as I like ISFJs.

    All of his facts and references to thinkers and respect for tradition seem Si/Fe/Ti to me.

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