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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    We didn't forget about it, we just realized that's a big part of what makes full-blown communism bad.
    It's not just communism I'm referring to Marm. This existed across the whole spectrum of the Left, including anarchism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Churches have nothing to do with legal marriage, which is why they have the right to refuse to marry people. That's why you can get married at the courthouse.
    Actually, at least in some states, pastors can legally marry people. My pastor filled out and signed the form, we dropped it in the mail to the courthouse after the wedding, and the marriage was legally binding.

    But people can typically get married at a courthouse even if no pastor will agree to officiate. Even if religious beliefs are currently driving the prohibition on same-sex marriage via legislation, the courthouse can't deny a marriage to a couple that can be legally married.

    (Which leads to some really funny scenarios. For example, I have a transwoman friend who was still legally male by her birth certificate; and so she was able to marry another woman in Pennsylvania since it was still a marriage of a man and a woman, even if the clerk didn't even know which one was the man and had to ask.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Patches presently anyone can go and have a service and call themselves whatever they want, they could have legally binding contracts drafted too, the idea is that marriage will be recognised legally, and by extension by all, as something it at present is not and it IS a staging ground for many to then wage a campaign on anyone who is not going to provide the religiously sanctioned services they want, otherwise it will be considered discriminatory and they will be able to sue them for as much as they can.
    Currently, I'm not aware of anyone who can successfully sue a church for not marrying them.

    (I'm not sure how many times I've suggested you study US law before imposing your own country's scenarios over top of ours in these discussions, but for some reason you continue to persist... I honestly don't get it.)

    I would love to believe you that it is simply a matter of live and let live but its far past that, why werent civil partnerships sufficient? Why would the minority's minority of politicised queers need parity of esteem with the majority and, dare I say it, dominant sexuality? Other than to serve as one more victory on the road to bringing down the imaginary heterosexual dictatorship they think is ruining their lives, I've read the books on queer theory which many of the people who think its just a matter of challenging nasty, religious bullies and bigots havent. There's a lot of nasty psychology there.
    I bet you also believe that extreme feminist theory dictates the conscious beliefs of every woman who stands up for herself as a woman.

    There's a big different between "queer theory" and the reality of what most average gay people seem to want. You're studying a minority of academia who is fringe-element and then thinking you can assume that every gay person in the US believes the exact same thing? (Next, you might be assuming the Black Panthers' philosophy accurately encapsulates the conscious beliefs of the majority of black people in the US.)

    The problem with civil partnerships is extremely basic: They don't work because they allow a moral stigma to permeate. It's like having a bathroom for blacks and a bathroom for whites. I suppose you should say, "Oh, that's fair... because it's equal." No, it just continues to say in context that blacks aren't good enough to share a bathroom for whites. That's the obvious, basic subtext, there is nothing profound or complicated about it.

    Civil partnerships would work fine if every marriage relationship in the US was simply a civil partnership... which is what it should be. But we still have a legacy mix of religion and law in this country that is causing problems.

    I really do believe that mindset of the vast majority of people opposed to "gay marriage" is simply "I didnt used to care but I've just about had enough of this", constantly being told that you're a bigot, a hater, discriminating, simply because you're living how generations before you saw fit to without it hurting anyone eventually wears, even if you're praticed in ignoring the chattering classes.
    I just hear Lark describing his own frustrations here, as you've done over and over and over again because apparently in your country and in your occupation you've felt imposed upon and discriminated against for being straight over and over and over again. Which is something I can try to empathize with, but not when it is imposed on a different country's dynamics over and over and over again erroneously.

    I hate even having to take the time to explain all this again, because to me this situation is merely one of basic discrimination (AKA fairness) and otherwise wouldn't even personally involve me, since I'm straight as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post


    Tattoo of Leviticus 18:22, which forbids homosexuality: $200.
    The fact that Leviticus 19:28 forbids tattoos: Priceless.
    I love you, Sexual Harrassment Panda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, at least in some states, pastors can legally marry people. My pastor filled out and signed the form, we dropped it in the mail to the courthouse after the wedding, and the marriage was legally binding.
    Yes, of course they CAN legally marry people...but you still had to drop the paperwork into the mail to the courthouse. Just being married in church without that step isn't legally binding.

    The two things are separate although a pastor can perform legal marriages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's not just communism I'm referring to Marm. This existed across the whole spectrum of the Left, including anarchism.
    Anarchy resists social control. How is it then that it is socially conservative?

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Anarchy resists social control. How is it then that it is socially conservative?
    Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, considered the father of Anarchism(or at least the first person to refer to himself as an anarchist) supported the traditional family structure and traditional sexual morality for one thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I'm suddenly reminded of Scott Lively, author of The Pink Swastika, who thinks most high-ranking Nazis, including Der Führer himself, were savage because they were gay. I couldn't make this up if I tried.
    Just because gay men were part of fascist movements doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between fascism and homosexuality. Puhleez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, considered the father of Anarchism(or at least the first person to refer to himself as an anarchist) supported the traditional family structure and traditional sexual morality for one thing.
    It's interesting that this person also advocated two years mandantory military service and that some people consider him to not be an anarchist though he said he was one.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's interesting that this person also advocated two years mandantory military service and that some people consider him to not be an anarchist though he said he was one.
    Usually those who claim he wasn't are often of the "post-Left" variety who often lash out at plenty of other leading figures within anarchism - like Murray Boochkin to give another example. Proudhon's place within anarchism is generally accepted.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, considered the father of Anarchism(or at least the first person to refer to himself as an anarchist) supported the traditional family structure and traditional sexual morality for one thing.
    Just because some anarchists are socially conservative, doesn't mean that all of them are. The same can be said for just about anything. Are all Muslims terrorists? Do all Christians want to burn the Qu'ran? Are all rectangles squares?

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