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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    Why would it be a threat to the church in the first place? It's not as if the gay rights folks are out to stamp out religion or burn down your church. They just want their unions to be recognized by the government, and given the same benefits and rights. As far as I'm concerned, that in no way involves religion, except that the majority of people who are in opposition are compelled to feel that way because their faith dictates it.

    Your religion/moral code says you shouldn't marry a man. Great. Don't.

    Let those who aren't a part of your faith alone.

    How will it negatively impact your church if two men get married?
    You're absolutely sure of that?

    Patches presently anyone can go and have a service and call themselves whatever they want, they could have legally binding contracts drafted too, the idea is that marriage will be recognised legally, and by extension by all, as something it at present is not and it IS a staging ground for many to then wage a campaign on anyone who is not going to provide the religiously sanctioned services they want, otherwise it will be considered discriminatory and they will be able to sue them for as much as they can.

    I would love to believe you that it is simply a matter of live and let live but its far past that, why werent civil partnerships sufficient? Why would the minority's minority of politicised queers need parity of esteem with the majority and, dare I say it, dominant sexuality? Other than to serve as one more victory on the road to bringing down the imaginary heterosexual dictatorship they think is ruining their lives, I've read the books on queer theory which many of the people who think its just a matter of challenging nasty, religious bullies and bigots havent. There's a lot of nasty psychology there.

    I'm a believer and I dont feel dictated to by my faith, I suspect that a lot of people who've had enough and are prepared finally to say to the gay agitators, that's enough, you're done, alright, dont feel they're being dictated to by their religions either, they could feel dictated to by the legislators who're going to change the very definition of marriage. Which isnt just a matter of semantics.

    I really do believe that mindset of the vast majority of people opposed to "gay marriage" is simply "I didnt used to care but I've just about had enough of this", constantly being told that you're a bigot, a hater, discriminating, simply because you're living how generations before you saw fit to without it hurting anyone eventually wears, even if you're praticed in ignoring the chattering classes.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I really do believe that mindset of the vast majority of people opposed to "[the struggle for equality]" is simply "I didnt used to care but I've just about had enough of this", constantly being told that you're a bigot, a hater, discriminating, simply because you're living how generations before you saw fit to without it hurting anyone eventually wears, even if you're praticed in ignoring the chattering classes.
    Yeah, that is the reactionist mindset.

  3. #63
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Yeah, that is the reactionist mindset.
    "'Eradicate the homosexuals and fascism will disappear."
    -Maxim Gorky

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    "'Eradicate the homosexuals and fascism will disappear."
    -Maxim Gorky
    That's the craziest shit I've seen all day, and that's pretty impressive since I've been interacting with Elfboy.

  5. #65
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You're absolutely sure of that?

    Patches presently anyone can go and have a service and call themselves whatever they want, they could have legally binding contracts drafted too, the idea is that marriage will be recognised legally, and by extension by all, as something it at present is not and it IS a staging ground for many to then wage a campaign on anyone who is not going to provide the religiously sanctioned services they want, otherwise it will be considered discriminatory and they will be able to sue them for as much as they can.
    My knowledge of this issue is specifically regarding American laws... I have no idea what things are like in other countries... But in the US... Churches have refused to offer sanctioned services to many different types of people before, and EVERY time this has been brought to a court system, they have ruled in favor of the church. And I'm not talking about gays at all. Churches can refuse to marry a woman because she is divorced, and they don't sanction re-marriage, because the couple has had children out of wedlock, because the couple is living together. They ARE allowed to refuse services based on race, creed, nationality, anything. In fact, "The right to refuse service" holds true in EVERY service-based industry except in providing housing.

    If none of the other lawsuits regarding church discrimination have held up... I see no reason why the situation will change just because the lawsuit is from a homosexual.

    The US Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II, Title VII, and Title VI. They prohibit segregation in employment and federal services - but, and churches are the specific exemption regarding employment... Churches MAY discriminate in employment because of their beliefs. The Mormon church considered negros (their own words) to be a "cursed" race, whose children should (and would) never serve in the priesthood. The Southern Baptist Convention was formed when baptists in the south were told that slave holders would not be allowed to be missionaries, as the parent organization at the time was pro-abolition. Women have been (and still are) excluded from certain positions of ministry. They are, 100% by law allowed to do this.

    Personally, I think your perception of what the majority of the gay community desires is skewed. I also think it's VERY clear in our laws that churches may refuse to offer service to anyone. And, I think if you did run into a sect of people in support of forcing churches to perform marriages... It would not get anywhere near enough support to become an issue.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

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    Churches have nothing to do with legal marriage, which is why they have the right to refuse to marry people. That's why you can get married at the courthouse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    That number is going to skyrocket after the good, sweet Lord slurps up all the idiots tomorrow.
    HAHAHA.

    Too bad it didn't happen.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    That's the craziest shit I've seen all day, and that's pretty impressive since I've been interacting with Elfboy.
    It's not too crazy when you learn more about the issue involved, as Johann Hari has pointed out: "This is a taboo topic for a gay left-wing man like me to touch, but there has always been a weird, disproportionate overlap between homosexuality and fascism."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann..._b_136697.html

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's all too forgotten how socially conservative the Left was at times.
    We didn't forget about it, we just realized that's a big part of what makes full-blown communism bad.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    "'Eradicate the homosexuals and fascism will disappear."
    -Maxim Gorky
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    That's the craziest shit I've seen all day, and that's pretty impressive since I've been interacting with Elfboy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's not too crazy when you learn more about the issue involved, as Johann Hari has pointed out: "This is a taboo topic for a gay left-wing man like me to touch, but there has always been a weird, disproportionate overlap between homosexuality and fascism."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann..._b_136697.html
    I'm suddenly reminded of Scott Lively, author of The Pink Swastika, who thinks most high-ranking Nazis, including Der Führer himself, were savage because they were gay. I couldn't make this up if I tried.

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