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  1. #51
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Tattoo of Leviticus 18:22, which forbids homosexuality: $200.
    The fact that Leviticus 19:28 forbids tattoos: Priceless.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  2. #52
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    It is impossible for a man to lie with a man as one does with a woman. Do these religious fools know nothing?

  3. #53
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I thought there were already gay rights and same-sex acceptance marriage bills passed in multiple states... so I'm a little confused as to what you mean.
    If this is true then I missed it. (Totally possible.) Every instance I've seen of gay marriage being legalized comes from some type of judicial decision.

    (And ENDA would have been passed in the last attempt, if not for trans inclusions, so...?) The current administration refused to support DOMA because it believes it's unconstitutional, so while we had no national budget in place, Republicans were scrambling to find money to defend it. You can see things crumbling, little bit by little bit.

    Note that in the poll (as the article said), the people most likely to vote for permitting same-sex marriages are young women, the most likely to vote against are older men. Which one of those groups comprises a large majority of our current legislative bodies? It doesn't really matter what the votes want; such legislation for or against is driven in our political system on the sponsorship and committee levels, which can get even supported bills dumped out in the cold by manipulating the process. It's just how the game is played.
    True, and you seem to be implying that gay rights don't have much support even among Democratic legislators. I would think if this was really a priority, then they would get a bill up for vote.

    You can remain skeptical if you want. Ten years from now, let's have another talk.
    I'm sure things will be different in ten years. By that time more young people will be voting. If the "big change" is really coming from the aging of the population, then the tide will very gradually shift toward gay rights. But if that is true, then it indicates this poll is a statistical anomaly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Also keep in mind that a number of polls have, in the past, shown a "passion gap" between supporters and opponents of gay marriage. There tended to be more people who care passionately who were opposed to it than were in support of it. A number of gay marriage supporters are of the "seems okay-ish to me, doesn't affect my life" ilk, while many gay marriage opponents are of the "gay marriage will destroy my religious freedom and the American/Christian way of life" category.
    I could buy that explanation. It could be a 49% "hell no!" vs. a 51% "yeah, sure, whatever". Gay rights is supported by the apathetic majority.
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  4. #54
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    If this is true then I missed it. (Totally possible.) Every instance I've seen of gay marriage being legalized comes from some type of judicial decision.
    In New Hampshire, gay marriage was passed by the state legislature. I'm not aware of another case in the US where it was passed by the legislature rather than being required by the judiciary.

    For Prop 8 in California in 2008, final votes were 52.3% banning marriage vs. 47.7% allowing gay marriage (opinion polls varying, with a majority polling against gay marriage). In Maine in 2009, voters voted for banning gay marriage 53%-47% (even though polling results were 47% for gay marriage, 45% against, 8% unsure).

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    True, and you seem to be implying that gay rights don't have much support even among Democratic legislators. I would think if this was really a priority, then they would get a bill up for vote.
    If it were the top priority bar none, I would agree. However, in the real world political maneuvering is much more complicated. Even the repeal of DADT (which had 67% support) was a long, hard struggle on the federal level. Real world politics is more pragmatic, and given the risk of veto or reduced chances of re-election, many legislatures will give it a pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm sure things will be different in ten years. By that time more young people will be voting. If the "big change" is really coming from the aging of the population, then the tide will very gradually shift toward gay rights. But if that is true, then it indicates this poll is a statistical anomaly.
    So... four polls in a row by different organizations are statistical anomaly? That's a pretty big anomaly. I agree the trend could easily reverse, but it's hard to deny there's some kind of trend (whether in actual opinion, or the kind of opinion that people are willing to express).

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post


    Tattoo of Leviticus 18:22, which forbids homosexuality: $200.
    The fact that Leviticus 19:28 forbids tattoos: Priceless.
    Actually that's cool, I think if I was going to get a tattoo I could get that one.

    Anyway, Leviticus describes a widespread practice of male rape, particularly perpetuated against strangers. Its obvious to me that the people attacking it as "hate speak" have as poor an understanding of it as the few who endorse it as an attack on homosexuality.

    In fact homosexuality doesnt really feature in the bible, that's a whole long span of history in which no one seemed that concerned about same sex attraction or relationships, perhaps it wasnt a feature of life or simply didnt become fashionable until recent history. Or perhaps even today its exaggerated as a practice and giving it parity with heterosexuality just doesnt make sense and wont achieve any of the hoped for developments those who campaign for that think will be the result. I know what I think.

  6. #56

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    Again with the comparisons with the civil rights campaigns of desegregationists. That's so wrong.

    I hope when the inevitable backlash results from the vocal minority's, which arent even all homosexuals, actions that it doesnt reflect upon civil rights aswell as the assinine idea of attempting to transform organic, time honoured and enduring social institutions at a stroke through state decree.

    You want to read the history books and see how difficult it is to stamp out the ideas of people of faith when they dont agree with you? I've visited mass rocks all over Ireland, I'm part of a church which has survived attempts to conquer it by force from pretty much any and all quarters, religious and left and right wing ideologies. The gay craze? I dont rate that as a threat, in fact I very much doubt it'll live long past people learning to ignore it like people have in the past.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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  8. #58
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The gay craze? I dont rate that as a threat, in fact I very much doubt it'll live long past people learning to ignore it like people have in the past.
    Why would it be a threat to the church in the first place? It's not as if the gay rights folks are out to stamp out religion or burn down your church. They just want their unions to be recognized by the government, and given the same benefits and rights. As far as I'm concerned, that in no way involves religion, except that the majority of people who are in opposition are compelled to feel that way because their faith dictates it.

    Your religion/moral code says you shouldn't marry a man. Great. Don't.

    Let those who aren't a part of your faith alone.

    How will it negatively impact your church if two men get married?
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  9. #59
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    my parents have supported same sex marriage for a long time, my dad even changed from republican to democrat when the republicans became crazy.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #60
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    You people clearly never grew up in rural redneck areas, if you wonder where all of the anti-gay-rights folks are at. They exist in droves. And they have shotguns.
    yikes... true and utterly frightening.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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