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  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The French Revolution followed by the rise of Napoleon followed by the restoration of the Bourbons represents a far greater shift from "left" to "right" in the span of a generation or so than anything we've seen in baby boomers.

    As for the hope of the last "conservative" generation:
    X-Cons: The Conservative Mind of Generation X
    There's earlier examples than the French Revolution, the reformation provided the template already, Luther unleashed chaos by wedding the zeitgheist, then betrayed the German peasantry when he saw the results of the "peasant war" and allied himself with the principalities.

    It was not a sell out so much as a rebellion rather than revolution, its been repeated and repeated through all history.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's earlier examples than the French Revolution, the reformation provided the template already, Luther unleashed chaos by wedding the zeitgheist, then betrayed the German peasantry when he saw the results of the "peasant war" and allied himself with the principalities.

    It was not a sell out so much as a rebellion rather than revolution, its been repeated and repeated through all history.
    That's a good one too, but I think it's best to restrict ourselves to post-1789 affairs. Come to think of it; the mores of the Victorian era were also a reaction to the loose morals of the previous era, especially among the aristocracy. The emerging bourgeoise wanted to set themselves up as a more "moral" vanguard for society. History never moves in one direction.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I agree with this, although I'm still laughing at Lark assuming that "anything goes" somehow = gay campaigners, since the values they're fighting for seem to be just as passionately held as the Christian pro-life movement's -- people think there is a wrong being done in society, and they're trying to remedy it. Trying to equate it primarily to hedonism of some sort sounds just like the backwoods fundies labeling gays as nothing more than bathhouse pervs back in the 80's.
    That's too verbose, I'm not labelling anyone, nor am I making any allusions to hedonism either but the reality is that for many its not even about positively endorsing homosexuality but attacking the great satans of conservatism, tradition or puerile messages that anything does go, there's nothing that cant be given a made or start over.

    I hope you're still laughing, even if you got that wrong too.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well even then, the cultural shift within Soviet society from the "free love" ways of the early 1920s("sex should be as common as drinking water" was Alexandra Kollontai's slogan) to Stalinism in the 1930s was pretty stark too. The Soviet Union was one of the first states to legalize abortion then outlawed it in 1936.

    Actually there was strong contrast between the "Jazz Age" mores of the 1920s and the more socially conservative 1930s in plenty of places. America, France, Germany, etc.
    I yield on this point, if solely to avoid going down all the rabbit holes presented, since I do have rebuttals for many.

    Now, back to the topic of gay marriage.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's a good one too, but I think it's best to restrict ourselves to post-1789 affairs. Come to think of it; the mores of the Victorian era were also a reaction to the loose morals of the previous era, especially among the aristocracy. The emerging bourgeoise wanted to set themselves up as a more "moral" vanguard for society. History never moves in one direction.
    True, true.

    Although I will be frank, while I am some kind of cultural conservative I dont relish the idea of reaction following on the heels of crazier and crazier agitation, most of the loons who would exploit reaction are the mirror equivalents of the agitators in the first place.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I yield on this point, if solely to avoid going down all the rabbit holes presented, since I do have rebuttals for many.

    Now, back to the topic of gay marriage.
    Suit yourself. If you want to come back to this topic, message me.

    In anycase,this does address issues related to a Whig interpretation of history, which plays a prominent role in gay marriage arguments. While not directly touching on the issue of gay marriage, it certainly addresses the larger framework on which it stands.

  7. #37
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    I'm not sure Alexandra Kollontai was in favour of "free love" to be honest, reading her material first hand I found that she was as morally conservative as many of those in her era, the quote about drinking water was actually that sex was a physical need which could or should be satisfied, she seemed to reject a lot of the loss of perspective which goes with the "free love" movement or later sexual liberationists.

    Her "feminism" was pretty different to modern feminism too, imagine attacking women for wishing to stay at home as wives and parents because it was a dodge from factory work?

    A lot of it was similar to the authoritarian work ethics of later Stalinism.

  8. #38
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    I thought she was in favor of abolishing marriage for example?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I thought she was in favor of abolishing marriage for example?
    From what I've read, it was a few years ago in a dusty old book in a university archive in the republic of ireland, her stuff is seriously difficult to find first hand, most of her statements like that were contextualised and qualified. As in "It would be as good as" or "we may as well say that" etc.

    That particular reference is a little like taking Ghandi's statements about how British laws rendered Indian wives and mothers prostitutes as literally doing so when it was a metaphor for how British law treated all "colonials".

    Plus, to be honest, if the soviets had ever really materialised any of their promises from before their power grab there'd be very little the government would be taking to do with marriage or anything else.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And why should that be?
    "But this can't be, you can't kiss, because, because, er, like, ewww!" The law is no longer on their side. All they have are their pick-and-choose Bible quotations and the yuck factor. Not exactly burden of proof material.

    Sorry if I was unclear.

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