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  1. #271
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, frankly, why not allow polygamy?
    Because as a practical matter it tends to produce legions of sexually fustrated and outcast young men and promotes the degradation of women; legalizing it therefore tends to be detrimental to individual rights and utilitarian outcomes. Gay marriage has not been demonstrated to produce similar results (there are frankly too few gay people for it to inherently threaten monogomous heterosexual marriage and the social function of the same), so there is no objectively compelling state or societal interests in outlawing it.

  2. #272
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because as a practical matter it tends to produce legions of sexually fustrated and outcast young men and promotes the degradation of women
    Doesn't that depend on the law being gender specific? If it's just "any person may marry as many other people as the like" (even with a caveat that it can't be same sex) then you can have multi-husbanded wives and multi-wived husbands.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #273
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What'll be next? Huh? Suggesting that an extrovert and introvert can get it on?!
    Okay, now I'm really gonna have to slap you silly. *whack whack whack*

    ... wait, is there an extrovert out there who wants to take me out? *hopeful*

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I remember reading something about polygamists being right on the heels of homosexuals in terms of wanting the same rights. Polygamists feel they should have the same rights, and especially, if homosexuals gain the same rights.
    My thoughts are simply to deal with topics one at a time. We shouldn't be punishing/depriving one class of people inappropriately simply to prevent another class from being able to benefit.

    Deal with same-sex, since it's the one in question right now.
    Then deal with anything else that comes up, as it becomes relevant in the culture.
    IMO everything has to be dealt with one by one, on its own merits, rather than the "all or nothing" binary involved in slippery slope arguments.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #274
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Doesn't that depend on the law being gender specific? If it's just "any person may marry as many other people as the like" (even with a caveat that it can't be same sex) then you can have multi-husbanded wives and multi-wived husbands.
    No, I assumed such legalization would include non-discriminatory language (and I don't really see the point in making legal polygamy strictly heterosexual) and therefore versatile arrangements; I just don't think the long-term consequences would be different from what I described.

  5. #275
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No, I assumed such legalization would include non-discriminatory language (and I don't really see the point in making legal polygamy strictly heterosexual) and therefore versatile arrangements; I just don't think the long-term consequences would be different from what I described.
    I see. I only mentioned the heterosexual aspect so as not to mix the issues, or rather to escape, say, religious or other moral objections to homosexuality from the brief discussion of polygamy (in case that was an issue for some).
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #276
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    To aim the thread back toward its original direction, I'm going to offer support for the shifting climes not from a liberal or moderate source, but from the president of Focus on the Family itself. An organization that was built into a political powerhouse for "traditional families" by founder James Dobson and very prominent in the late 80's and throughout the 90's, Focus certainly isn't going to do lip service to liberal propaganda.

    But in this May 2011 World magazine interview with current head Jim Daly, it looks like even they have accepted the inevitable:

    We're winning the younger generation on abortion, at least in theory. What about same-sex marriage? We're losing on that one, especially among the 20- and 30-somethings: 65 to 70 percent of them favor same-sex marriage. I don't know if that's going to change with a little more age—demographers would say probably not. We've probably lost that. I don't want to be extremist here, but I think we need to start calculating where we are in the culture.

    ....

    So churches would have a standard of marriage higher than the state's? We'd say, "The piece of paper that you get at the state to recognize your marriage is worthless. It's like registering your car. But if you're going to be a part of this church and you're married, you're going to be committed to your marriage. There's no easy way out." What if the Christian divorce rate goes from 40 percent to 10 percent or 5 percent, and the world's goes from 50 percent to 80 percent? Now we're back to the early centuries. They're looking at us and thinking, "We want more of what they've got," because we're proving in front of the eyes of the world that marriage in a Christian context works.

    What's the current perception of gay activists about Christian marriage? I sat down with one. He said, "You guys haven't done so well with marriage. Why are you upset about us having a try?" We've got to look at our own house, make sure that our marriages are healthy, that we're being a good witness to the world. Then we can continue to work on defending marriage as best as we can.
    It's an interesting read... and I think actually Focus has become a better, more helpful org under Daly than Dobson, who was very politically divisive. (I think the web site sections about the "Gay and/or Trans Agenda" were removed under Daly's tenure.) Daly actually believes in, "Hey, if we're right, then we can't just claim we're right; we need to live it out and show the world, so that they'll want to join us." That's actually the way it should have been all along.

    While Daly might share the same values as Dobson (in the interview, he alludes to the possibility that God might be allowing same-sex marriage and polyamory to thrive mainly as as "wakeup call" to Christians everywhere, so they'll get their act together and also have an opportunity to show what they have to offer in contrast) and is not supportive of same-sex unions, he's willing to admit when the tide has shifted irrevocably beyond the traditionalists' control.

    EDIT: I thought this was an interesting quote as well:

    Any thoughts on President Obama? I may not agree with any of his policies. I do appreciate that he's married to his first wife and raising his two children. We need more men like that. I once said that America would be better off if we had more families that reflected the Obamas, and a lot of conservatives went nuts with that, but it's true! Some of the conservative candidates that we put up—between a couple of them recently, I think they had seven or eight marriages. That seems a bit hypocritical.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #277
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    New York just passed same-sex marriage!
    (The Senate was the tough one, one vote shy... and the final vote was 33-29!)

    Cuomo already signed it. It's supposed to be in effect by July 24, I think.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #278
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    That Focus on the Family article you cited is weird. He assumes that the Christian rate suddenly drops from 10 to 5 (it's way over ten) and worldwide rate grows from 50 to 80 (it isn't that high). Actually Christians have slightly lower divorce rates than Jews, but higher than non-religious people.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  9. #279
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    That Focus on the Family article you cited is weird. He assumes that the Christian rate suddenly drops from 10 to 5 (it's way over ten) and worldwide rate grows from 50 to 80 (it isn't that high). Actually Christians have slightly lower divorce rates than Jews, but higher than non-religious people.
    I'm confused.

    From article: "What if the Christian divorce rate goes from 40 percent to 10 percent or 5 percent, and the world's goes from 50 percent to 80 percent? Now we're back to the early centuries."
    I read that as him saying "WHAT IF" things return to that old level, if current trends continue? IOW, he's imagining what could happen if the pattern doesn't change. From reading your comment, it sounds like you thought he said that is the way it currently is.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #280
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm confused.



    I read that as him saying "WHAT IF" things return to that old level, if current trends continue? IOW, he's imagining what could happen if the pattern doesn't change. From reading your comment, it sounds like you thought he said that is the way it currently is.
    I'm implying he's misrepresenting current divorce rates, but I did misread it as 10. 40 is actually probably a little high for Christian divorce rates. It's really just a nitpick.

    I think the point he's making is absurd though. Basically just saying "If things were this way, then people would wish they were more like us!". It's like saying "if the dictators didn't kill anyone and everyone had a job and a lot of rights and good healthcare then people would like them" (which is of course an extreme version of the sentiment).

    Also, yay for NY.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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