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  1. #211
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Guys some of your views about the past carry the conceit of the present. Just saying.

    In Ireland there are many, many monuments and evidence for their continual building even after there were established pilgrimage routes between them all which were well trodden pathways, all of which suggests that someone felt it was necessary to seriously occupy peoples time rather than leave them to produce more and more children in an under populated world. Population was probably more of a problem in the past than now because agriculture was insufficiently sustainable for any assurity to exist that additional mouths could be fed, have children and you ran the real risk of watching them die.

  2. #212
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    A so long thread for such a pointless issue is quite fascinating.
    Just glancing over it, it looks like it just got stupider and stupider.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Guys some of your views about the past carry the conceit of the present. Just saying.

    In Ireland there are many, many monuments and evidence for their continual building even after there were established pilgrimage routes between them all which were well trodden pathways, all of which suggests that someone felt it was necessary to seriously occupy peoples time rather than leave them to produce more and more children in an under populated world. Population was probably more of a problem in the past than now because agriculture was insufficiently sustainable for any assurity to exist that additional mouths could be fed, have children and you ran the real risk of watching them die.
    It made sense to have more children when so many of them were bound to die before adulthood.

    It was a way of guarenteeing some of your genes got into the next generation.

    It's like how cats keep having loads and loads of kittens unless you spay and neuter them.

  4. #214
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It made sense to have more children when so many of them were bound to die before adulthood.

    It was a way of guarenteeing some of your genes got into the next generation.

    It's like how cats keep having loads and loads of kittens unless you spay and neuter them.
    Marmie its clear to me you've got a bad case of Lark Lust now excuses about repopulating the planet will not cover it!!

  5. #215
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Agreed.



    I was scared to death of both the Old Testament and Revelations as a child. Really the only good thing about the Bible is the Gospels (but the Gospels are still full of sexist fairy stories about virgins giving birth to babies), and I still kind of see it that way as an adult, frankly. I mean, there are reverends and priests who have torn their hair out trying to justify and rationalize all of the heinous, contradicting crap in the Bible, and they'll be happy to pelt you with those rationalizations for hours on end, but the people who are really fun are the ones who say, "Don't question God's word. Don't question authority. Don't question anything." I'm like...yeah....about that...
    Thank goodness I was out of the church by the age of 8...... I guess it could've been worse. "Don't question God's word" is really creepy.
    I ran the other way as fast as I could! And became an AC/DC fan lol.......
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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Thank goodness I was out of the church by the age of 8...... I guess it could've been worse. "Don't question God's word" is really creepy.
    I ran the other way as fast as I could! And became an AC/DC fan lol.......
    This post reveals a lot about you.

    Eight years of age is an early stage of life to form an opinion about religion, least of all God, it might seem your dissenting, really your just showing the stamp of the culture you're living in.

  7. #217
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This post reveals a lot about you.

    Eight years of age is an early stage of life to form an opinion about religion, least of all God, it might seem your dissenting, really your just showing the stamp of the culture you're living in.
    That's a little part of it, but it's a much bigger picture and much more complicated than just that.
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  8. #218
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    (incoming wall of text... tl;dr is assumed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not just about marriage vs. unlicenced marriage, if it where then civil partnerships would be sufficient or two people who feel they're married would be content with that. Its about policing the opinions of people who dont believe that two women or two men can ceremoniously "marry" each other and it mean the same thing as a marriage between a man and a woman. I dont know what its going to take to convince people that the state shouldnt be in the opinion forming and policing game.
    In the US, the boundary between legal marriage and the freedom of churches to marry whom they see fit is quite clear. However, unlike in the UK, civil unions are not universally available in the US (only in a few states) and where they are they do not provide all the legal benefits of marriage. Even in states where same-sex marriage is available, same-sex marriage doesn't confer the rights of marriage on the federal level (thanks to DOMA). This leads to people being considered married in some cases, and single in others. Furthermore, the whole separate but equal approach has very negative connotation here in the United States.

    Also, in some places where civil unions have been made available, the laws later expand to make them available to heterosexuals. This seems to lead to a dilution of the status of marriage, with fewer people opting to commit to full marriage. One would think this would be appauling religious conservatives, since it seems to do far more material harm to the institution of heterosexual marriage than allowing same-sex marriage.

    Beefeater, as far as your arguments go, surely you can see (as Jennifer pointed out) you haven't put out a lot one can really discuss. You have said your religious beliefs are the reason for your stance on same-sex marriage, that objective information is unimportant, that utility is unimportant and that individual Bible verses are unimportant. What's left is tradition, your individual experience, your interpretation of the broad themes of the Bible and some anecdotes. I think we agree that marriage traditionally hasn't been conceived to include same-sex couples. The other aspects are subjective and/or bound to a particular religious tradition.

    As far as the anecdote about a particular gay bookstore in Austin making more money from porn than literature, that's hardly suprising since just about every major bookstore chain has a "gay and lesbian" section. One hardly needed to go to a gay bookstore to find gay and lesbian fiction even twenty years ago. One also wonders what would motivate a man (men are the large majority of porn consumers) to be porn-avoidant when his sexuality has already been declared fundamentally sinful and deviant. Also, it's interesting to note that more conservative states appear to consume more porn than more liberal states (following the trend of teen pregnancies, divorce and the like).

    I agree with you the Brown University students were both wrong and uncivil toward traditional marriage demonstrators on their campus. I support the freedom of speech even of the ACLU-defended "God Hates Fags" Westboro Baptist Church. I admit I find the No On Marriage folks to be fairly objectionable since they've sponsored a number of smear campaigns and refused to abide by state laws about financial disclosure.

    Still, I don't think it's fair to judge all pro-SSM folks by the actions of a few. I could judge Lark by the tattoo he wouldn't mind getting. That tattoo made it onto the news because it was sported by a friend of a man who had beaten a gay man within an inch of his life. I don't think those folks (or the Westboro Baptist Chuch) represent mainstream Christians who oppose gay marriage.

    I also find it a bit disturbing you are so easily taken with the idea that gay men are particularly fascistic. While I can easily believe that gay men were Nazis (as were some Jews and Chrstians), I don't think there's sufficient evidence to conclude that gay men were significantly over-represented among the Nazis. Clearly there were gay men and women among the US military during WWII, too.

    Beefeater, I respect your civility (despite some extreme provocation) and your willingness to defend your perspective. Even humanists should accept that a religious outlook has been proven to be a longstanding aspect of human nature and deserves respect.

    Conversely, I find it puzzling what you and Peguy consider the role of non-Christians to be in US political life. Should Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Atheists and Agnostics be content to be ruled by Christian law? If any one of those group were more numerous than Christians in the US, would you accept being ruled by their laws? Doesn't it seem better to model Christian morality freely chosen, rather than it being obscured by a dead husk of Christian morality being imposed from without?

  9. #219
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Thanks, for your responses everyone. I'm taking a short break, but will return and respond to everyone in the next day or two.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #220
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Wow, I just saw these so I'll reply quickly to them before I get to everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I have visions of beefeater sitting in a basement, surrounded by his own messes to the point where you can't walk in the room, with a small, filthy mattress in the corner on the floor, where he sleeps. He is busily typing away on his computer, copying straight out of a book, getting his jollies from annoying some liberals on a forum lmfao. I guess it's better than planning the deaths of multiple prostitutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure. This could all be leading up to a mission from God to eradicate gays from the face of the earth, with Beefeater considering himself to be the appointed angel of death. I mean, he already believes that the "indwelling spirit" is what is telling him homosexuality is worse than shrimp scampi.
    You've called me delusional so why are you merely implying that I'm evil and not just saying it outright? I mean, equality and rights are so important we should be calling people who want to take them away evil. Plantation owners were evil, Hitler was Evil, Apartheid was evil.

    The problem is that if you say it outright you can't simply say: "Beefeater is evil." Because you won't be consistent with your own world view. Instead you must say: "Beefeater is evil... or not... ya know... whatever works for you."

    It kind of loses it's weight.

    And yet you desperately want to make passionate pleas to others, but the truth is within you and so it seems just exasperating trying to convince the world to your own personal truth. You must huff and puff, but at the bottom your truth and your good is just yours and so you are alone and isolated.

    Whereas my truth is outside of myself. When I call out evil I don't need to convince anyone of the validity of my own beliefs and the burden is not on me. Evil is not a construct within myself it is something that is really there in the world. So I just need to call attention to the evil that is there. When I do so I can be at rest that I have done all that is necessary. I do not need others to agree with me for self-validation.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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