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  1. #191
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post

    Sex does not merely effect society... IT CREATES IT.
    Actually, people create society. The act of sex creates people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Moreover, only rightly ordered sex creates society. So you see this isn't just a personal choice issue.
    No, I'm not seeing that. Then again, I never paid attention to whether my sex was "rightly ordered" or not...... lmao. What you are saying is that, because I am in society, I have a responsibility to procreate? My argument there is that no, unless there is a direct reason for me to need to procreate (such as endangerment to population), I don't have a responsibility to, and it is my choice. And that's why it IS a choice. Society is not threatened by today's happenings.... there is no code red lol.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Those choices can be limited to the extent they are anti-social. SSM falls within that anti-social category.
    So, from your pov, any sex outside of missionary position with your husband/wife is anti-social, and "hedonistic"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post

    Really any activity that separates sex from it's procreation and spousal unity function threatens society. But, sadly since the rise of the sexual revolution we have seen this happen and rather than bringing freedom it has simply devalued sex and cheapened relationships. Sex is no longer about love and concern for others but about selfishness and self gratification.
    I hate to break the news, but people long before the sexual revolution were having cheap sex lmao..... it was just more-hidden. The sexual revolution gave us the chance to be ourselves, to choose it freely, and to enjoy it without having to hide it.
    At the same time, in the southern states I know, the guys were pretty much abusing the situation and using the double-standard in order to go out and cheat on their wives, in the masses. Your way wasn't working and that is why the sexual revolution happened. The old ways were being abused; people weren't happy and they wanted out of their situations. They wanted to freaking say who they were without hiding it. They wanted to come out of the dark and create an awareness of people and their situations. Self-awareness is the way to understanding and health. Without it, I wouldn't and couldn't be happy with myself or others. It's been proven. I need to openly express myself without being judged by the masses. Judged by a few? Sure, but in a mostly christian society, I am stifled and judged all-too-much, and what I want must be done in an environment devoid of christians, which makes for a place where I can be taken advantage of. When my actions are accepted, I can express myself around people who love me for who I am and I don't have to hide it. When there are healthier outlets (the same actions in a different environment), I no longer need to worry about becoming unhealthy, simply for being me. It works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I don't think you understand me. I don't think what the government does is inherently right... actually that's probably the logical conclusion of what you believe.

    The government should not have the power to enforce laws outside of it's jurisdiction. This means that there is a whole slew of non-behavioral sins that it cannot punish. However, it is within the jurisdiction of government to order society. Putting limitations on marriage is certainly within that right.
    No, I don't think they are "right", just ruley, and no, I don't trust the government, for many reasons. I think the government could be a lot more "right" lol.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Yes, this is what happens. People don't want to be judged so they want to make a deal with society that everyone will just stop caring each other. That's not loving. Sex outside of marriage always has consequences, but people will find ways to ignore the harm to make themselves feel less guilty.
    No, I don't think that people want to stop caring about each other. I simply think that people want the choice of whether to have loving relationships or cheap relationships, freely, and not have to cover them up and keep them under-wraps. Keeping things hidden leads to more sickness than openly showing them....."this is who I am, flaws and all". Sex outside-of-marriage has always been nothing but right for me. I've never met a man I wanted to marry, and I refuse to deny myself the pleasure that sex has to offer me. I only go around once; why should I deprive myself? There is no one who is judging me, only myself, and it's right for me. I'm hurting no one by doing it, and no, I don't feel guilt or shame. How could I when it is a victimless act to have sex with my SO lolol......It doesn't make any sense to me why I should feel guilt or shame. A gay person is born with no other choice but to have sex with their own gender, so when they do it, for some reason, they should feel shame. And donkeys fly lmao. I don't care about being judged, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I live under grace. I've committed fornication a million times in my mind and that is just as offensive to God. Instead of hiding my guilt and shame I confess my wrongdoing. God has promised that he will love me no matter what I do. So this isn't just about guilt. I actually have every reason to feel free from guilt. In response to the promise of God's love I want to promote a society that is rightly ordered and will provide an environment not where people can simply hide their guilt and shame from one another, but can avoid the pitfalls of wrongful selfish behavior.
    I can't believe in the existence of God when there is no proof. How can i possibly believe there is a God somewhere who is judging me for my "sins", when to me, there is nothing and no proof. As far as I'm concerned, there is no proof in the existence of God until further notice.



    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    How am I not considering history? I've talked a hell of a lot about history.
    Because if you look at this country alone, there was and has been failure. Before women gained more freedoms, women were not productively utilizing their talents, and many still aren't and can't. People were and still are in the dark when more people were using your methods. I grew up in a conservative area, and I didn't adopt their ways, because I saw too much abuse. The only time I have been honestly happy and am now starting to actually find myself and use my talents, was now, in California, where freedoms are more rampant, and imo, this is the most love I have ever seen. I am loved for who I am and what I do for myself and others. I am loved for achieving and utilizing my talents. It's funny to me because the only christianity I have ever seen limited people to roles and not most, but ALL people never saw who they were and what they could do and achieve for society and for themselves. People here give to the community without religion, and they love and respect one another, regardless of what they believe in. And this is one of the most productive areas in the world. Yes, I know you are idealistic in that you think what you believe can work for everyone, but it has been proven that it can't. No religion can be an end-all, be-all for everyone. There are some personalities that need other. And the people who needed more than what christianity and non-productivity had to offer them, left the southern states. Now, I know some christians here who are okay and more open-minded, and productive, but I also know that it definitely doesn't work for everyone. Why? The south is good evidence of that..... you have a whole region who mostly claims to be christian.... and a whole region of failure productivity-wise, and community-wise. I tried for 20 years to get the same help in the southern states that I found in California before I ever even stepped foot in the state. I believe that in many instances, religion can lead to a lack of awareness and education (my answers are already here, because I have religion), and a lack of knowledge and true productivity (I have god, so why do I need to do better. I like the simple life.) Lack of awareness and education leads to a failure to understand and support, and to help. Religion is anti-individual, and I have truly seen the bad that can come of being reliant on religion to solve your own personal problems. Asking god to help you results in nothing, and I've seen it happen time and time again. You have to rely on yourself and take responsibility for your own life to make something of yourself and to benefit society as a whole. god just gives people a scapegoat, something to rely on to "forgive" them when they do things that don't benefit themselves and others, and something to ask for help when they can't do it themselves. Why can't they do it? Because instead of using their own brains to figure out how, they have spent their entire lives believing in a fake man in the sky to solve their own fucking problems. Prayer is useless. There MUST be choices, because not if, but when, christianity fails people, they MUST be able to find their own answers elsewhere. And that's the beauty of the United States. This is just one example of a failure of christianity to provide the necessities needed for some people to become what I consider to be productive members of society. There are a billion more where that came from. Yes, I know you are probably going to say, it is a failure of people and not christianity, and while that may be a bit true, let's admit the fact that IT DIDN'T WORK FOR EVERYONE the way you think it could. In fact, imho, the south is proof that it worked for hardly anyone lolol....... there are more fucked up people there than you can imagine. And the only way it is going to improve is by the breaking-down of old beliefs. The people are too reliant on god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Self-imposed rules without meaning and purpose are harmful. All the things I'm suggesting promote, community and love.
    I believe that community and love can occur without religion, and I see it all around me everyday. We don't need religion to create it, or god. I have experienced so much more love without it. I have all the proof I need that what I am experiencing, without god or religion around me, is the best thing I have ever seen. I do things for myself and others because I want to and I am driven to, not because I am following a set of rules. I believe that the rules I go by are what are making me better, and they are. I was sick when I was around religion, now I am well, and getting better and better everyday. My own rules are meaningful to me....and that's what i need. I KNOW that it is the exact opposite for me, based on experiences lol..... there is no one set of rules that works for everyone. lmfao..... The time I have been at my best is the time when I had to do for myself, and figure out for myself, without reliance on God or other.



    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    The fact that this limited set of behavior and it's societal acceptance has such a profound effect on individuals other actions only fuels my argument that sex is terribly important and has a huge impact on society.
    It has some, but not nearly as much as you want to believe. You hand over so much power to a small group of individuals. I currently see no threat in my radar lol.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I already talked about freedom above. Sexual freedom has led to a devaluation of sex, relationships and love. Divorce rates have sky rocketed since the sexual revolution and fatherlessness has dramatically increased. Sex is not about love anymore it is about self gratification.
    Divorce rates have skyrocketed? Good. People are getting out of their useless, non-productive, abusive marriages and going off to find better. That makes for a happier existence. Women were being beaten and abused, and they were able to find their way out. For shame! Let's face it: the sexual revolution has been nothing but positive for women. Without the freedoms I have, I would still be in the south, married to some loveless abuser with the umbrella of christianity over my head, and stuck in a place where I would rather be dead than alive. How's that for christianity and love?! People are going to make mistakes and get married to people they won't love forever, and they need a way out of them, without feeling guilty and needing to ask some dood in the sky to forgive them. I have an idea of what makes a good person, based on my own definitions and what works for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Education??? Education of what? Without truth or goodness education is an empty methodology. It has no ground on which to stand and cannot possibly promote love and community.
    I'm an individualist. You seem to believe there is one answer for all, and I know that isn't possible. I think everyone has, and everyone finds, their own truth, even within christianity. There is no universal truth. There is no universal definition of "good". It's about what works for the individual, and many people somewhat agree on a definition of "good" and live it everyday. Education is the way to more awareness, more understanding, and therefore, more love.



    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You can practice hedonism and ignore relationship with god and others, but you were not made an independent self-sufficient being. We need god and we need community without them the only choice is to make yourself drunk on selfish pleasures.
    I believe you can have community without god. I see it happen everyday. I know people who give to the community who are not religious. There are many other choices other than "making yourself drunk on selfish pleasures". As far as independent and self-sufficient, yes, I think there are some people who are both. There are no hard-and-fast rules. I definitely do not need god to make my life great; community is a different story. Then again, some people don't need community either. It just depends. Basically, you are harping some of the same values, but yours are religion-based, and mine is based on individual-based responsibility and caution. I don't think life is about only the pursuit of selfish and hedonistic pleasures, and I believe in looking out for others and giving to the community that sustains you. And I definitely believe in loving one another. I am in a good, monogamous relationship that is FULL and BRIMMING with understanding, more than I have ever seen from any christian, and believe me, I have known many.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Testing society? I think I've already made clear my distaste for the social sciences. You don't experiment with society. You cannot simply supplant old religious based ideas of marriage and see how new ones "work". This is because you are testing without a standard to measure how things "work".

    I like this quote by albert salomon:

    http://www.kirkcenter.org/index.php/...When:13:00:19Z
    Yea, well, I hate to break the news, but the US is tested on a daily basis, in so many ways. What we have, has never been done before in history. We can either use a book written in the 10th century bc to tell us how to live, or we can try new methods that might make people happier, and that's what we are doing.

    Christianity can't possibly work for some personalities. It just wasn't meant to be. And those personalities need other choices. Basically, you are going backward and not forward. It didn't work for everyone, and that's why people created other choices. If you want to believe it yourself, fine, but don't try to impose your ways on everyone, so half of us can live miserable fucking lives, devoid of growth and love. Life is getting better for most people and not worse..... and there's your proof. As we become more aware, more educated, more free, and more technologically-advanced, quality of life improves, which leads to more love and happiness. Open your eyes.

    Christianity = create shame, so you will have to ask a fake god for forgiveness for things "he" has told you not to do, but you are going to do anyway. then you can go pay a preacher at a church to keep telling you what you shouldn't be doing.
    There's a much easier way. You decide yourself what is right and wrong, and then go by that. So when you make a mistake, you don't have to feel guilt or ask for forgiveness, but just improve so you don't make that mistake again.
    I thought I was paranoid, you have me beat by a mile.

    I hate to say it, because I posted previously on not calling christians "nuts", but this ain't no regular christian lol................... yep, beefeater, i believe you're not right.......lmao. I'm not even gonna come out in the open with my real thoughts on this matter, but I will say, it's not a good assessment lmfao.
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  2. #192
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    A so long thread for such a pointless issue is quite fascinating.
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  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I love that song. Very catchy. I find myself whistling it at work.
    SPRINGTIME FOR HITLER AND GERMANY! WINTER FOR POLAND AND FRANCE!

    Oh yeah. Love that song.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Here lies the entire problem: You want to impose the rules you derived from your own delusion on other people's lives. Please stop to make us your equals. We do not want to be slaves. Eat your bitter 'truth' alone.
    I have visions of Beefeater sitting in front of some miniature-to-scale world and positioning everything just the way he wants it.

  5. #195
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    A so long thread for such a pointless issue is quite fascinating.
    Yes, I know, but curiosity leads me to places I probably could do without.
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  6. #196
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I'm just waiting for the bigots to die.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #197
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I have visions of Beefeater sitting in front of some miniature-to-scale world and positioning everything just the way he wants it.
    I have visions of beefeater sitting in a basement, surrounded by his own messes to the point where you can't walk in the room, with a small, filthy mattress in the corner on the floor, where he sleeps. He is busily typing away on his computer, copying straight out of a book, getting his jollies from annoying some liberals on a forum lmfao. I guess it's better than planning the deaths of multiple prostitutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I have visions of beefeater sitting in a basement, surrounded by his own messes to the point where you can't walk in the room, with a small, filthy mattress in the corner on the floor, where he sleeps. He is busily typing away on his computer, copying straight out of a book, getting his jollies from annoying some liberals on a forum lmfao. I guess it's better than planning the deaths of multiple prostitutes.
    I wouldn't be so sure. This could all be leading up to a mission from God to eradicate gays from the face of the earth, with Beefeater considering himself to be the appointed angel of death. I mean, he already believes that the "indwelling spirit" is what is telling him homosexuality is worse than shrimp scampi.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I have visions of Beefeater sitting in front of some miniature-to-scale world and positioning everything just the way he wants it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I have visions of beefeater sitting in a basement, surrounded by his own messes to the point where you can't walk in the room, with a small, filthy mattress in the corner on the floor, where he sleeps. He is busily typing away on his computer, copying straight out of a book, getting his jollies from annoying some liberals on a forum lmfao. I guess it's better than planning the deaths of multiple prostitutes.
    I honestly do not think him that way. I believe he is a humble and obedient servant, a good bureaucrat, who simply happened to be born into a peculiar world ruled by an evil (and imaginary) master.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I honestly do not think him that way. I believe he is a humble and obedient servant, a good bureaucrat, who simply happened to be born into a peculiar world ruled by an evil (and imaginary) master.
    Obedient servants of imaginary masters can be quite dangerous. Haven't you ever seen Frailty?

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