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  1. #171
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why would a homosexual person refrain from gay sex?
    Because he knows it's not good for him, is immoral, etc. Why would anybody refrain from anything?
    You lose.

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  2. #172
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    Cleveland: Thanks for including my Civil Rights boardgame in the game night rotation guys.
    Lois: Oh, we're always happy to play "Two Decades of Dignity." It makes us all feel a little less guilty.
    Peter: For whistling at a white woman, go directly to jail. Aww, man doesn't anyone ever win at this game?
    Cleveland: You don't win. You just do a little better each time.
    It's better than it ever has been before (in recent history).

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Because he knows it's not good for him, is immoral, etc. Why would anybody refrain from anything?
    Sex and intimacy are basic drives, though, like hunger.

    This isn't the same thing as refraining from injecting heroin.

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    At the end of the day, there are so many interpretations of the bible that there is NO following it to-the-letter (because there is no one set, universal truth), and some of the methods within it are so barbaric that people have long-ago disposed of them. Which is why I mentioned the sacrificing of goats lol......
    The problem is that so many don't realize how much of it they're still following is also barbaric.

  5. #175
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Sex and intimacy are basic drives, though, like hunger.

    This isn't the same thing as refraining from injecting heroin.
    The less a person gives into any drive, the less "driven" they are for it. The longer a smoker goes without smoking, the less need they have for a cigarette. Sex is very much the same. I mean, like I've said before, I'm a virgin. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with my own anatomy though, *hint hint.* The longer I've gone without giving into an urge, the easier it becomes. To a certain extent, thoughts are determined by actions. Even food, while its true a person can't live without it, after not eating for about 3 days, the feeling of hunger goes away.
    You lose.

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  6. #176
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Because he knows it's not good for him, is immoral, etc.
    I consider it good because it feels good, it makes one happy, it makes another happy and feel good. It is immoral only within certain ethics.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Why would anybody refrain from anything?
    For a million reasons, but often because some things are not good for them.

  7. #177
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It's not a matter of what sin is "worst" it's a matter of what behavior is socially tolerable and what restraints on behavior are within the proper jurisdiction of the government.

    So it's not like I just want the government to ban all sins I think are really bad. In fact I think some of the worst sins are far outside the jurisdiction of the government like insidious emotional abuse and manipulation within a family.

    Believe me I'm all for restrictions that hit heterosexuals as well like porn bans and getting rid of no fault divorce.
    I disagree that it isn't a matter of what sin is "worst". You can't divert responsibility for your own decisions to ostracize another based on your belief that you are right (less sinful), and they are wrong (more sinful, in your eyes). Yes, it's about people disagreeing on what is "socially intolerable", I agree with that, but it's still about you believing that their behaviors are morally reprehensible as a whole, but that yours, while sinning like the dog you are, are not. Your behavior is possibly just as "socially intolerable" to me as theirs is to you. It's a personal choice, and a personal decision.
    Yes, with "socially tolerable" being the word. No sin is, within the bible, "socially tolerable", so does that mean you should also be ostracized for sinning? We all sin, on a daily basis, so that means we are all acting with behaviors that are socially intolerable, daily. Rational people do not believe that what is socially acceptable is always right. And the government lol, now that's laughable. The government has been wrong, wrong, and wrong, again and again and again, throughout history. I can't imagine wanting to place my personal decisions and choices in the hands of someone else, much less a government.

    I think it comes down to this: we all agree that murder is mostly socially intolerable. But a rational person cannot figure out why consensual sex between two people (whether it be homosexual, or hetero, or other), done with responsibility and regards to health of course, can possibly be socially intolerable. Who exactly is it hurting? I don't agree that most of the country is ready for it, but I think it is true. There are too many fucked up people out there to handle it, and I think that's one thing that Christians fear, so they make the rules for everyone. When you weed through it yourself, it isn't so scary anymore, and you create your own set of rules to keep yourself safe. I think most people at some point or another have had sex outside of marriage, and they don't see that as any worse than having gay sex, in the christian rulebook. You however, have created more rigid rules, even for yourself, and wish for everyone else to see the use for them and to live by them. Let's hope that you don't have a mental breakdown one day because of the rigid rules you have imposed on yourself that no normal human being can possibly adhere to.

    At the end of the day, both sides have their reasons for believing their way is right, and both want to make rules for the other.

    Man, you are going back to the stone ages.... I wish we had a time machine, we could let you try it out and then tell us what you think. You aren't considering history.

    While i would, like you, like to eliminate abuse within families, and for the environment to become more healthy, it has already been proven that the methods you instigate actually create more harm for people than good. There are some poor examples of the opposite as well (France, for example), but I like to think that America has a better shot at freedom-with-health, and we are doing it closer-to-right. If we went your way, there would be a lot more unhealthy, sick people.... including me, and screw that. Tried it, and it didn't work for me. Not even close. The more I go towards freedom, the healthier I become. I believe in freedom-with-regards-to-health-and-responsibility. It's a heavy call, but I think if we strive to, we can one day reach it as a whole nation.

    At the end of the day, give gays a chance. Many of them can and do act with responsibility, and it will get better as they become more accepted. It's very easy to rebel when you have a lot to rebel against, and you are in-the-fringes simply by being born (of course, I've mostly chosen that, just because that is what I am, as well, and I prefer it). There are just as many heteros acting without responsibility as there are gays, but taking away their freedoms will just make things worse. The trend is toward education, and therefore, appropriate and healthy choices, with regards to others we are affecting. I feel like rebelling just from reading what you just wrote lol.......think I'll go sin somewhere lmao.

    I think the problem with SOME christians is that instead of weeding out the bad seeds, they want to bite off the whole stalk and call it "bad", just to be sure. It's definitely a selfish take on life (I was born into this, or I am choosing this place where I am safe, and you are the ostracized one, and that is okay, because I am safe. Who gives a crap about you?!) and it is irresponsible (it doesn't take into account the "little" guy, and doesn't take responsibility for those who were born with no other choice, for the oppressed). And that victimizes people.....as people become more aware, they realize that some of their judgments were wrong, and they allow more people into their lives. I actually like some christians, and am friends with a couple of catholics, both who are open-minded and overall good-do'ers who take responsibility for others. End result is: the government can't and won't save you, and religion can't and won't save you. You have to learn to save yourself, and to make yourself happy.

    Let's face it: the Bible was written a long fucking time ago. I don't think they ever tested whether it would work if we allowed gay people to marry, and knew the consequences of that decision. So let's give it a shot, and see for ourselves what happens. I think that whatever bad comes of it, we can handle, and we can make it work.

    We as a people have the responsibility to help everyone find happiness and health! (I also admit to being annoyed by hypocrisy and superiority complexes lol......)
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  8. #178
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I consider it good because it feels good, it makes one happy, it makes another happy and feel good. It is immoral only within certain ethics.
    Right, and I believe in leaving that up to you to determine for yourself.

    Frankly, I don't think government should be involved in marriage of any sort. It's a personal contract; the state doesn't need to be involved. So long as it is, though, I can't in good conscience support its extension to homosexual relationships. The state's involvement in marriage is basically a promotion of the institution. I am morally obligated to do what I can to prevent the promotion of homosexual marriage.
    You lose.

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  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The less a person gives into any drive, the less "driven" they are for it. The longer a smoker goes without smoking, the less need they have for a cigarette. Sex is very much the same. I mean, like I've said before, I'm a virgin. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with my own anatomy though, *hint hint.* The longer I've gone without giving into an urge, the easier it becomes. To a certain extent, thoughts are determined by actions. Even food, while its true a person can't live without it, after not eating for about 3 days, the feeling of hunger goes away.
    How can you compare sex to smoking? Smoking is an unnatural addiction that makes you cough and human sexuality is a normal, healthy drive that increases both physical and psychological health.

    Yeah, after the 3 days the feeling of hunger starts to go away, but you'll also become sick and die.

    I don't think the drive for sex goes away the longer you don't have it. That's just craziness right there, and it hasn't been my experience at all.

  10. #180
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Right, and I believe in leaving that up to you to determine for yourself.

    Frankly, I don't think government should be involved in marriage of any sort. It's a personal contract; the state doesn't need to be involved. So long as it is, though, I can't in good conscience support its extension to homosexual relationships. The state's involvement in marriage is basically a promotion of the institution. I am morally obligated to do what I can to prevent the promotion of homosexual marriage.
    It is so sad that your belief forces you to be unjust and resentful. I hope you get better.

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