User Tag List

First 7151617181927 Last

Results 161 to 170 of 300

  1. #161
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    The contested issue is whether gays are really being discriminated against. Gays have the same civil rights as you or me. Marriage is not a civil right, and it's not legally open to everybody. I can't marry my sister(not that I would even want to), nor can I have more than one wife - to give a few examples. And polygamy is banned even though it formed an important tenent of the Mormon faith, and Mormons argued on grounds of civil rights too. We also have the tricky issue of Civil Rights by default being based upon conceptions of moral absolutes(which usually derive from religious sources) - Martin Luther King Jr. himself(as I just cited) based the concept upon the natural law explained by St. Thomas Aquinas(and further elaborated by other theologians I should add). For the most part gays can enter into whatever relations they want without fear of legal recriminations. That wasn't so back in the 1960s with Black and white couples, married or no.

  2. #162
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I've admittedly never studied the bible. Even though intellect has come easy for me, I have spent a big part of my time in pursuits of pleasure and rebellion, with no regrets. This has, however, heightened my experiences and given me a worldly view. I am not as studied as many of you.

    With that being said, I don't know ANYONE who follows the bible to the letter, and actually think it would be quite impossible to do so. However you choose to interpret the bible, the one thing that is and always will be for certain is that all people are sinners. So while you and many others decide that gay people should be ostracized for their "sins", you go commit your sins daily and on a ready-basis. What the heck makes a gay person's "sin" so much worse than your own?

    So by your ideas, EVERYONE has already given up the bible, because NO ONE follows it to the letter. Which is why changing the ideas concerning homosexuals is no big deal. After all, I'm not sacrificing a goat anytime soon..... People pick and choose some things out of the bible and claim them to be "important", and the things that we've decided long ago are "ridiculous", well, we judge them as so. The truth is, when the book was written, they were important too.....The sex thing has got to go......
    The Bible is often misquoted, misused and misinterpreted. People read it like it applies today.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


    ENTP
    Extroverted (E) 56.76% Introverted (I) 43.24%
    Intuitive (N) 64.29% Sensing (S) 35.71%
    Thinking (T) 62.5% Feeling (F) 37.5%
    Perceiving (P) 75% Judging (J) 25%

    9w8 SP/SX
    Neutral

  3. #163
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    sorry nother wall of text. I keep finding new posts before I answer old ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Beefeater, if (and only if) your belief is based on as a fully elaborate and coherent system as you claim, not just in regards to this issue but the whole book, I'll call it fair. Anyone who picks and chooses verses and ideas is someone who is essentially using the text to describe personal preferences, and they are wrong. People who are more open to the whole thing tend to believe stuff I find much more dubious and even bizarre personally, but I do have to respect them for having a solid belief basis, unlike pickers/choosers.
    That's very thoughtful of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Anyways, I don't believe in God so I don't even sort of have any imperative to not support gay marriage. I have a feeling further debate may be a moot point.
    fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Does that help your argument somehow? How exactly does making it about beauty, one of the most subjective things evarrr, advance the point that government should be banning things that aren't "beautiful" (whatever that means), "true" (whatever that means), or "good" (whatever that means)? Particularly when speaking about marriage, which is not particularly "beautiful, true or good" - neither is it particularly the opposite....
    Wow... how can I spell this out.

    Ok, I know you're canadian, but the U.S. constitution charges the federal government to "promote the general welfare." Forget about beauty for now, but if truth and goodness are completely subjective than this essentially is a meaningless clause. This is because in a completely subjective world one cannot align government action with any fixed standard. Thus, the government action devolves into pure exercise of power devoid of any meaning and really making it impossible to argue for or against any policy. There is no reason in an entirely subjective world. This is another reason why the best argument for ssm is "meh, why not?"

    The government will pretend that it is acting in accord with "hard facts" that provide the basis for rationality. But, the problem is (and as I have been saying this is the result of popular postmodernism) that with no real meaning behind those facts public policy merely becomes a purposeless methodology.

    Without the traction of truth cold government rationality becomes like a turtle on it's back moving it's legs, but going nowhere slowly.

    This is why I believe that even if ssm marriage is achieved in a country it is an empty victory devoid of any real meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Explain how banning two consenting adults from marrying due to religious ideals has anything to do with the hope of finding meaning or truth. Oh you can't, because it doesn't? get to the point plz.
    The reality is that marriage is not just a random social happenstance but a divine institution grounded in the natural law. Thus marriage laws that are in accord with this divine institution are enable society to experience far greater truths and much deeper meaning then your insistence that marriage is not particularly true, beatiful or good, but just is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Congratulations, you're not a neo-nazi. However, you're completely off-topic.
    Well, strangely that is very on topic given previous posts in the thread referring to links between gays and Fascists. Which frankly was a surprise to me and makes me ponder how far off from reality "springtime for hitler" really was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    The issue here is whether gay marriage should be banned, not whether you like or dislike (agree/disagree, if you prefer) homosexuality. The issue is whether consenting adults should be allowed the same rights as other consenting adults, or whether they should be denied legal rights based on the "disagreement" of other people.

    For an example of what I mean, I very strongly disagree with people having 20 children, but I support their right to do so. I'm not lobbying to get them banned from having children, even though I find the practice completely disgusting and even immoral in some situations.
    You're just asserting that I'm off topic, but I've made numerous arguments explaining the connection between the gay rights movement and the drive towards main stream acceptance of homosexuality.

    I'm really confused now because you're speaking of "legal rights" and "immorality" and yet you believe truth and goodness are subjective.

    What is your basis for morality and legal rights?
    Aren't they inherently fluid concepts given your presuppositions?



    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This is an excellent point, and one that really needs repeating. Supporters for gay marriage often have a very bad habit of acting smugly and condescendingly towards those who disagree with them, and as we've even seen in this thread others have certain enjoyment mocking and knee-jerking religious beliefs. And yet they claim to stand for tolerance and understanding. :rolli:
    http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/what...MainNewsletter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Pretty much there is no argument to face when someone says, "I have a religious belief, and what I believe in is true and pure, and what you believe in -- regardless of how it manifests -- is ugly and wrong."

    I mean, really. How is anyone supposed to argue with that? At best, if they don't want to hurt your feelings by challenging you, all people can do is ignore you. There's no commonality by which to explore and come to an agreement.
    Stop pretending that I'm doing something that I'm not. Especially when you're doing the exact thing you accuse me of.

    You're just asserting that ssm is good.

    You've ignored my arguments on burden of proof, rational basis, and tradition.

    As for attacking me I think an inherent aspect of truth is consistency so you can search that out. I mean that's what Peguy and I are doing to the gay rights movement showing how it's basis is flawed and inconsistent with it's goals. Not, to mention the fundamental flaws in your seemingly enlightenment based thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I've admittedly never studied the bible. Even though intellect has come easy for me, I have spent a big part of my time in pursuits of pleasure and rebellion, with no regrets. This has, however, heightened my experiences and given me a worldly view. I am not as studied as many of you.

    With that being said, I don't know ANYONE who follows the bible to the letter, and actually think it would be quite impossible to do so. However you choose to interpret the bible, the one thing that is and always will be for certain is that all people are sinners. So while you and many others decide that gay people should be ostracized for their "sins", you go commit your sins daily and on a ready-basis. What the heck makes a gay person's "sin" so much worse than your own?
    It's not a matter of what sin is "worst" it's a matter of what behavior is socially tolerable and what restraints on behavior are within the proper jurisdiction of the government.

    So it's not like I just want the government to ban all sins I think are really bad. In fact I think some of the worst sins are far outside the jurisdiction of the government like insidious emotional abuse and manipulation within a family.

    Believe me I'm all for restrictions that hit heterosexuals as well like porn bans and getting rid of no fault divorce.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #164
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    The Bible is often misquoted, misused and misinterpreted. People read it like it applies today.
    Indeed. Here's a good outline on proper interpretation of Biblical morality:
    [youtube="vEX5vsU4-SI"]How best to read scriptures[/youtube]

  5. #165
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    MBTI
    IsFJ
    Posts
    3,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Hardly anyone does follow the Bible to the letter. It's easiest to observe this by surrounding ones self with strict Jewish people who actually still follow many of the old laws.

    What disgusts me is the picking and choosing. While I think any form of highly enforced organized religion is undesirable, and that extends to non-religious forms of overbearing ideological social control like Soviet communism, it at least is more consistent with the people who haven't just decided that being gay is the big bad thing from Leviticus.

    Not that that makes it better. Because it doesn't. It's just more consistent.
    Didn't A. J. Jacobs try to do that once? The results were interesting, or so I've been told.

  6. #166
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Hardly anyone does follow the Bible to the letter. It's easiest to observe this by surrounding ones self with strict Jewish people who actually still follow many of the old laws.
    At the end of the day, there are so many interpretations of the bible that there is NO following it to-the-letter (because there is no one set, universal truth), and some of the methods within it are so barbaric that people have long-ago disposed of them. Which is why I mentioned the sacrificing of goats lol......
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  7. #167
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This is an excellent point, and one that really needs repeating. Supporters for gay marriage often have a very bad habit of acting smugly and condescendingly towards those who disagree with them, and as we've even seen in this thread others have certain enjoyment mocking and knee-jerking religious beliefs. And yet they claim to stand for tolerance and understanding. :rolli:
    I openly admit that I am intolerant of intolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Sometimes I wish I could conduct myself in such a dishonest manner, but I have something called a conscience.
    Do you resent god for giving you a conscience then? Oh, that would be sinful. Do you resent that it is sinful to resent god for declaring all the beautiful and good things bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    However the same kind of maliciousness on the part of gay marriage supporters rarely gets addressed as far as I see.
    That is hardly surprising. It is a just means to a good end. Most people accept war against evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right, and in essence you become what you supposedly despise.
    Deontological nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That doesn't lend too much credibility to your cause I must say.
    Science and history do not lend much credibility to your god. That has never bothered you, I take it.

  8. #168
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I openly admit that I am intolerant of intolerance.
    That's nice.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    There's an important distinction to be made between homosexuality and gay sex. They really aren't the same thing. A person can't help what they feel, but they can help what they do with their feelings. I choose to abstain from "straight sex." In the same way, a gay man can abstain from gay sex.
    Why would a homosexual person refrain from gay sex?

  10. #170
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The contested issue is whether gays are really being discriminated against. Gays have the same civil rights as you or me. Marriage is not a civil right, and it's not legally open to everybody.
    Heterosexual partners can get married and then benefit from the rights bestowed on their marriage by the state. Civil unions do not have the same rights; homosexual partners cannot benefit from the same rights. What if it were the other way around (and try to imagine it without religious implications)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I can't marry my sister(not that I would even want to), nor can I have more than one wife - to give a few examples. And polygamy is banned even though it formed an important tenent of the Mormon faith, and Mormons argued on grounds of civil rights too.
    I think you should be allowed to marry your sister and any number of additional women and men. This would get interesting when someone married, say, 100 people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    We also have the tricky issue of Civil Rights by default being based upon conceptions of moral absolutes(which usually derive from religious sources) - Martin Luther King Jr. himself(as I just cited) based the concept upon the natural law explained by St. Thomas Aquinas(and further elaborated by other theologians I should add).
    We decide what is right in the same way in which we make traffic laws. Theologians and priests are unnecessary except, perhaps, for convincing some sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    For the most part gays can enter into whatever relations they want without fear of legal recriminations. That wasn't so back in the 1960s with Black and white couples, married or no.
    How is that relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's nice.
    Yes. Are you going to respond to the rest of the post as well?

Similar Threads

  1. Same-sex Marriage, do you support it?
    By Julius_Van_Der_Beak in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 608
    Last Post: 08-27-2015, 02:49 PM
  2. Obama Administration Support for Same-Sex Marriage
    By Totenkindly in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 03-09-2013, 09:23 PM
  3. Question for those who oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds:
    By Brendan in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 111
    Last Post: 05-05-2010, 09:32 PM
  4. Do you think same-sex marriage should be legal?
    By ez78705 in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 257
    Last Post: 05-22-2009, 05:02 PM
  5. Christianity Today Poll (same-sex marriages)
    By Totenkindly in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 67
    Last Post: 09-14-2007, 08:53 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO