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  1. #151
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    So, if you are going to be against hate, look in your own backyard before you point the finger at the other side. It seems that some people are so fucking sure they are right and that everyone should think like they do, that they think they have the right to hate on the other side, but no one does. Both sides have the right to exist, and nothing is ever 100%. There is a need for both at this time.
    This is an excellent point, and one that really needs repeating. Supporters for gay marriage often have a very bad habit of acting smugly and condescendingly towards those who disagree with them, and as we've even seen in this thread others have certain enjoyment mocking and knee-jerking religious beliefs. And yet they claim to stand for tolerance and understanding. :rolli:

    Sometimes I wish I could conduct myself in such a dishonest manner, but I have something called a conscience. And as a believer, I know my faith speaks out against hypocrisy. As Christ himself stated in Matthew 7:2: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." I'm not blind to the bigotry and whatnot directed at gays, in fact most the of the major Christian traditions condemn it too. Here's what my church states on the matter:
    "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law."
    --Pastoral Care for Homosexuals: The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

    However the same kind of maliciousness on the part of gay marriage supporters rarely gets addressed as far as I see. Two wrongs don't make a right, and in essence you become what you supposedly despise. That doesn't lend too much credibility to your cause I must say.

    Then again I've made this point over and over and over again before on this very topic. I even stated this during a previous articulation on this point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I don't mind that people support gay marriage if they can actually argue in a coherent and civil manner. To be perfectly honest, the arguments made by both sides are for the most part nonsensical bullshit, and I say this as somebody against gay marriage. That's a major reason why I usually choose to stay away from the topic as much as possible; because people just cannot act like mature adults when debating the issue. And I'm still puzzled as to why homosexuality is the issue that would raise such behavior in people.
    Years later I'm still puzzled.

  2. #152
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    Yeah I'm pretty smug and condescending toward other people who attempt to reserve the right to fuck with strangers' lives for no good reason.

    If you decided to put up a sign that said "No blacks can eat at this lunch counter" I'd get pretty smug and condescending about that as well.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Every time you reveal how batshit crazy you really are, I am stunned beyond words, Beefeater.
    I u Nico

  4. #154
    Sniffles
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    And of course many people are more than eager to prove my point.

  5. #155
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gps View Post
    What `rights' and `privileges' should single citizens of the U.S. be denied which marrieds should be allowed, granted, or provided?
    I thought this was an interesting point, and not one I've usually seen discussed. Thank you for bringing it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater
    Whereas throughout this thread I've been called names and my arguments have been pretty much ignored.
    Pretty much there is no argument to face when someone says, "I have a religious belief, and what I believe in is true and pure, and what you believe in -- regardless of how it manifests -- is ugly and wrong."

    I mean, really. How is anyone supposed to argue with that? At best, if they don't want to hurt your feelings by challenging you, all people can do is ignore you. There's no commonality by which to explore and come to an agreement.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And of course many people are more than eager to prove my point.
    Let me break it down for you Peguy: people choose to follow a certain religion, but they don't choose to be born black or white or gay or straight. This is why it's wrong to discrimnate against them. You chose to be a Christian, they didn't choose to be gay.

    FURTHERMORE, you also chose to impose your beliefs on other people's sexuality. You trying to enforce heterosexuality on homosexuals is like a homosexual trying to force homosexuality on you.

  7. #157
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    There's an important distinction to be made between homosexuality and gay sex. They really aren't the same thing. A person can't help what they feel, but they can help what they do with their feelings. I choose to abstain from "straight sex." In the same way, a gay man can abstain from gay sex.
    You lose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    There's an important distinction to be made between homosexuality and gay sex. They really aren't the same thing. A person can't help what they feel, but they can help what they do with their feelings. I choose to abstain from "straight sex." In the same way, a gay man can abstain from gay sex.
    Enforced life-long celibacy is bad for you physically and psychologically, and ironically for their followers, the Catholic church has been a shining example of this even aside from scientific or medical evidence.

  9. #159
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post

    Thus, we begin to see that marriage and sex is not just silly little rules meant to spoil our fun, but contain much broader themes that involve the mysteries of the universe. The bible consistently refers to the church as the bride and christ as the bridegroom. This does not mean that two men can't marry in itself, but but it does mean that marriage and sex are to be taken very seriously. At the same time the seriousness of sex is combine with strong notion of the incredible joy of sex when one reads a book like the song of solomon.

    The fact of the matter is that the Bible spends a ton of time talking about sex and marriage. Throughout all those various themes and references sex between a man and a woman married to each other is consistently upheld as righteous and ANY sex outside of marriage is consistently condemned in both the old and new testament. There is no picking and choosing when it comes to the issue.

    If you want to make any argument that the bible supports homosexual relationships you have to pretty much ignore all the in depth themes and contours of the bible and

    This has absolutely nothing to do with me not "the gays." I don't have any personal problems with gays and the whole "ick" factor doesn't really bother me in itself.




    We'll see. Revivals come and go. It's really hard to take the bible seriously and simultaneously support homosexuality. Some people do it, but many just end up giving up on the bible pretty much altogether.
    I've admittedly never studied the bible. Even though intellect has come easy for me, I have spent a big part of my time in pursuits of pleasure and rebellion, with no regrets. This has, however, heightened my experiences and given me a worldly view. I am not as studied as many of you.

    With that being said, I don't know ANYONE who follows the bible to the letter, and actually think it would be quite impossible to do so. However you choose to interpret the bible, the one thing that is and always will be for certain is that all people are sinners. So while you and many others decide that gay people should be ostracized for their "sins", you go commit your sins daily and on a ready-basis. What the heck makes a gay person's "sin" so much worse than your own?

    So by your ideas, EVERYONE has already given up the bible, because NO ONE follows it to the letter. Which is why changing the ideas concerning homosexuals is no big deal. After all, I'm not sacrificing a goat anytime soon..... People pick and choose some things out of the bible and claim them to be "important", and the things that we've decided long ago are "ridiculous", well, we judge them as so. The truth is, when the book was written, they were important too.....The sex thing has got to go......
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I've admittedly never studied the bible. Even though intellect has come easy for me, I have spent a big part of my time in pursuits of pleasure and rebellion, with no regrets. This has, however, heightened my experiences and given me a worldly view. I am not as studied as many of you.

    With that being said, I don't know ANYONE who follows the bible to the letter, and actually think it would be quite impossible to do so. However you choose to interpret the bible, the one thing that is and always will be for certain is that all people are sinners. So while you and many others decide that gay people should be ostracized for their "sins", you go commit your sins daily and on a ready-basis. What the heck makes a gay person's "sin" so much worse than your own?

    So by your ideas, EVERYONE has already given up the bible, because NO ONE follows it to the letter. Which is why changing the ideas concerning homosexuals is no big deal. After all, I'm not sacrificing a goat anytime soon..... People pick and choose some things out of the bible and claim them to be "important", and the things that we've decided long ago are "ridiculous", well, we judge them as so. The truth is, when the book was written, they were important too.....The sex thing has got to go......
    Hardly anyone does follow the Bible to the letter. It's easiest to observe this by surrounding ones self with strict Jewish people who actually still follow many of the old laws.

    What disgusts me is the picking and choosing. While I think any form of highly enforced organized religion is undesirable, and that extends to non-religious forms of overbearing ideological social control like Soviet communism, it at least is more consistent with the people who haven't just decided that being gay is the big bad thing from Leviticus.

    Not that that makes it better. Because it doesn't. It's just more consistent.

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