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  1. #141
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Every time you reveal how batshit crazy you really are, I am stunned beyond words, Beefeater.

  2. #142
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why threads about legal/government recognized gay marriage end up in discussions about interpereting the Bible anyway.

    Yet again, this is an issue that actually has NOTHING to do with religion.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
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  3. #143
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I'm not sure why threads about legal/government recognized gay marriage end up in discussions about interpereting the Bible anyway.

    Yet again, this is an issue that actually has NOTHING to do with religion.
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  4. #144
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I'm not sure why threads about legal/government recognized gay marriage end up in discussions about interpereting the Bible anyway.

    Yet again, this is an issue that actually has NOTHING to do with religion.
    It's because most of the more vocal religious people want to impose their preferred behaviours on everyone. While in some cases hypocritically whinging about "sneaky gays, they're trying to make everyone gay!!!!!!1111". If they were rational human beings they wouldn't be religious they would understand that they have no right to force people to obey religious rules through state legislation. Mind you, this intolerance is hardly an American invention - countries with Sharia law have them beat.

    The ignorance blows my mind.
    -end of thread-

  5. #145
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Well, that'd be fine, if the Bible didn't advocate absolutely horrendous things I don't think you could ever justify even back then in the old testament (for example, the solution to gays is genocide, that a rape victim who is betrothed gets killed with her attacker, one who is not engaged must marry her attacker (Deuteronomy 22: 23-28)). What you have to do, additionally, is provide reasoning WHY you can ignore rules about beard-trimming, shellfish, rape or genocide but still go ahead and thing homosexuality is evil. You have to make a logical distinction independent of the Bible for WHY homosexuality is bad and beard trimming isn't aside from "I think it can't be done with a good heart". Why? If it creeps you out, disgusts you, or you just personally don't like it, but that's all you got, sorry, then you just don't like gay folks.

    Even the New Testament is flawed. First of all, Jesus notes Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB) and "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB) so you need to start killing your neighbors when they work on Sunday. He also says "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB), so rebellious kids should die, and "Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)", so slavery seems pretty alright in Jesus's book. Do you support those passages?

    See, to me, I don't mind people believing in the Bible, but they ALL pick and choose passages, and you need a solid reason. You haven't given a solid reason that working on Sunday or trimming a beard doesn't warrant death or punishment but homosexuality does except "homosexuality can't be done with a pure heart", which boils down to: gays are automatically bad people doing bad things, for no other reason than I think so. Which goes back to a whole sort of "I just don't like 'em" sounding attitude.
    I'm not going to engage you in arguing about the meaning of the bible on a verse by verse level. All that will happen is that you will just misconstrue verses with no sense of the broader themes and context of the passages and as I explain each verse you will just find another one. I'm actually very weary of proof texting arguments. The fact of the matter is that my beliefs are not based in a picking and choosing of verses (which I will admit is unfortunately common among certain groups of christians) but rather a comprehensive theology that has been developed over 500 years and has its roots in far older views. I'm not afraid of the Old Testament and I will stand by every verse in it. Most of people's problems with the Old Testament stem from a belief that people are basically good. But, a large part of the Old Testament is all about pointing out the wickedness of men and the holiness of God. Without a full understanding of man's wickedness there is no need for the good news of the new testament.

    Forget about the way God treated people. Look at the way people treated God. You want to talk about slavery? God delivered an entire nation from slavery and they showed him nothing but disdain and consistently betrayed him no matter how good he was to him.

    In the book of Hosea God calls a righteous prophet to marry a whore to symbolize his own relationship to that of israel. Him the dutiful husband and her the betraying adulteress. This is an inditement on all of God's people.

    Thus, we begin to see that marriage and sex is not just silly little rules meant to spoil our fun, but contain much broader themes that involve the mysteries of the universe. The bible consistently refers to the church as the bride and christ as the bridegroom. This does not mean that two men can't marry in itself, but but it does mean that marriage and sex are to be taken very seriously. At the same time the seriousness of sex is combine with strong notion of the incredible joy of sex when one reads a book like the song of solomon.

    The fact of the matter is that the Bible spends a ton of time talking about sex and marriage. Throughout all those various themes and references sex between a man and a woman married to each other is consistently upheld as righteous and ANY sex outside of marriage is consistently condemned in both the old and new testament. There is no picking and choosing when it comes to the issue.

    If you want to make any argument that the bible supports homosexual relationships you have to pretty much ignore all the in depth themes and contours of the bible and

    This has absolutely nothing to do with me not "the gays." I don't have any personal problems with gays and the whole "ick" factor doesn't really bother me in itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    On the other hand, this is all largely irrelevant. The young overwhelmingly support same-sex marriage and most opposition comes from seniors. As the old die the numbers will go up and up. It'll happen in our lifetimes, and I'll bet even strong Christians, who have used that book to justify a lot of bad stuff, are going to come around in the next 50 years or so. People will look back on not allow gay marriage as another stupid, antiquated and unfair idea like we look at segregation today.
    We'll see. Revivals come and go. It's really hard to take the bible seriously and simultaneously support homosexuality. Some people do it, but many just end up giving up on the bible pretty much altogether.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Every time you reveal how batshit crazy you really are, I am stunned beyond words, Beefeater.
    You're my favorite, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I'm not sure why threads about legal/government recognized gay marriage end up in discussions about interpereting the Bible anyway.

    Yet again, this is an issue that actually has NOTHING to do with religion.
    This is because you interpret the functioning of government as not being influenced by religion when the constitution actually forbids an establishment of religion.

    Besides, as I mentioned above the modern US Government is largely influenced and controlled the religion of humanism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    It's because most of the more vocal religious people want to impose their preferred behaviours on everyone. While in some cases hypocritically whinging about "sneaky gays, they're trying to make everyone gay!!!!!!1111". If they were rational human beings they wouldn't be religious they would understand that they have no right to force people to obey religious rules through state legislation. Mind you, this intolerance is hardly an American invention - countries with Sharia law have them beat.

    The ignorance blows my mind.
    You are misconstruing the debate. This is not about preferences and choices. This is about what beautiful, true and good.

    But, so many in the west have given up any hope of finding meaning or truth.

    This is really a great example of the "intolerance of tolerance."

    I'm actually a very tolerant person in the modernistic sense of the word. I don't hurl slurs and I welcome people's right to voice their opinions. Whereas throughout this thread I've been called names and my arguments have been pretty much ignored. This is because the modernistic view of tolerance as respect of the person has lost it's sway over so many people. In it's place has risen a postmodern view of tolerance where instead of respecting people we must respect ideas.

    Theologian and Hebrew scholar D.A. Carson has explained how incoherent and stupid this is since you can hardly be expected to tolerate something if you're not allowed to disagree with it in the first. Thus the current view of tolerance marginalizes all other views and is inherently intolerant itself.
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  6. #146
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You are misconstruing the debate. This is not about preferences and choices. This is about what beautiful, true and good.
    Does that help your argument somehow? How exactly does making it about beauty, one of the most subjective things evarrr, advance the point that government should be banning things that aren't "beautiful" (whatever that means), "true" (whatever that means), or "good" (whatever that means)? Particularly when speaking about marriage, which is not particularly "beautiful, true or good" - neither is it particularly the opposite....
    But, so many in the west have given up any hope of finding meaning or truth.
    Explain how banning two consenting adults from marrying due to religious ideals has anything to do with the hope of finding meaning or truth. Oh you can't, because it doesn't? get to the point plz.
    This is really a great example of the "intolerance of tolerance."

    I'm actually a very tolerant person in the modernistic sense of the word. I don't hurl slurs and I welcome people's right to voice their opinions. Whereas throughout this thread I've been called names and my arguments have been pretty much ignored. This is because the modernistic view of tolerance as respect of the person has lost it's sway over so many people. In it's place has risen a postmodern view of tolerance where instead of respecting people we must respect ideas.

    Theologian and Hebrew scholar D.A. Carson has explained how incoherent and stupid this is since you can hardly be expected to tolerate something if you're not allowed to disagree with it in the first. Thus the current view of tolerance marginalizes all other views and is inherently intolerant itself.
    Congratulations, you're not a neo-nazi. However, you're completely off-topic. The issue here is whether gay marriage should be banned, not whether you like or dislike (agree/disagree, if you prefer) homosexuality. The issue is whether consenting adults should be allowed the same rights as other consenting adults, or whether they should be denied legal rights based on the "disagreement" of other people.

    For an example of what I mean, I very strongly disagree with people having 20 children, but I support their right to do so. I'm not lobbying to get them banned from having children, even though I find the practice completely disgusting and even immoral in some situations.
    -end of thread-

  7. #147
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    It's because most of the more vocal religious people want to impose their preferred behaviours on everyone. While in some cases hypocritically whinging about "sneaky gays, they're trying to make everyone gay!!!!!!1111". If they were rational human beings they wouldn't be religious they would understand that they have no right to force people to obey religious rules through state legislation. Mind you, this intolerance is hardly an American invention - countries with Sharia law have them beat.

    The ignorance blows my mind.
    (This post doesn't only address you, Random, but I think it addresses some of your points. All of it isn't meant for you lol.....)

    I have an awful lot to say on this matter, concerning that I have lived both in a very conservative area in the south (where things aren't NEARLY as negative towards gays as some of you want to believe; most people are apathetic on one side or the other, and have been since the 80's, in reality), and I have lived in Cali amongst alot of gays (honestly, many who live with aids). I have addressed this matter with the people I know, within both social groups. I don't think either side is all "wrong" or "ignorant", and even if some are, fighting and bullying amongst one another just makes the other more rigid in their views. So do the misunderstandings..... I see people on both sides who do little to understand the other side, but just enjoy pointing at the other side, I think because they just enjoy the fight. Me, I can certainly see and understand both sides, and you won't see me telling either they are batshit crazy or ignorant.

    Knowing the tendencies of human nature as much as you people do, and being educated, I can't understand how you could miss the fact that some older people grew up in a time where many were fighting much harder for survival (in the south, I know). (And I can't see how some of you couldn't understand that it is incredibly hard for some people to change their beliefs, whether it be reasonable or not). My mother had two sets of clothing and had to worry about what she was going to eat the next day. For Christmas, she got a fountain pen. The educations were poor, there was much mental illness, and you were lucky to get work in construction or in a mill. They were giving people brain surgery when they had borderline personality disorder; the medical practices were many times cruel and horrible. Anything against the norm was something they didn't and couldn't understand with science, and there was no good explanation for it, so they feared it, and felt it was a threat to their survival. Ignorance = fear, and during those times, they had no choice but to be ignorant. It wasn't that long ago that women couldn't even vote, and now gays are allowed to have unions. I would say we have come a long way in a short period of time. So keep your panties intact, I am sure we are in for a flowing ride of change. And try to have just a tiny bit of empathy for people who weren't born with the same advantages that you have. Life hasn't always been in-the-bag. There was no mommy and daddy to pay for college when they grew up.

    That being said, there is no control issue. Many of the old school folk don't want to control anyone, and many of them wouldn't hurt a fly irl. They simply hang on to their beliefs..... a little too hard, and they will die with them. Why? Because it's the way things were when they grew up, and it's what they know. Elvis was shockingly cool. Some of these folks aren't the control freak rednecks some of you assume they are; they are just simple folk living day-to-day who can't understand and never will fully. Some gens had it rough, and there were many more things to worry about than what cellphone they were using; they had to worry about where they were going to eat their next meal. We have a lot more freedom and time to contemplate gay people. Desperation leads to worry about day-to-day survival needs, above all else. I also see the fact that forcing churches to obey a certain set of rules themselves, is unconstitutional. If a church doesn't want to recognize gay marriage, I don't see why it has to. That's their choice, and the US supposedly grants the freedom to allow it, whether I fucking agree with it or not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    At the same time as there are religious folk who don't want to recognize gay marriage, there are also gay people who want to force their way into churches just to get their revenge, and there are actual groups who target "innocent" churches to hate on, just for their own mere enjoyment. So, if you are going to be against hate, look in your own backyard before you point the finger at the other side. It seems that some people are so fucking sure they are right and that everyone should think like they do, that they think they have the right to hate on the other side, but no one does. Both sides have the right to exist, and nothing is ever 100%. There is a need for both at this time.

    As far as gay people, yes, I definitely sympathize with their positions and the grief they have experienced. It hasn't been an easy road, but several I know chose to stay in the south, regardless, which tells me that it's not so bad, and I don't think it has been. They are happy in their ways. I am happy to see their lives becoming easier, just like everyone else's has within this period of time. Mine certainly has as well. There is no real reason for the problems they have been forced to face.

    That being said, I do support gay marriage, but not enough to go vote either way. Why? Because I like to sit back and watch it happen, observe. I don't want to touch the machine and then be responsible. Mainly because I know people on both sides, I have an understanding of both, and I see the need for structure as well as change. If any changes happen too fast, it can lead to chaos. The machine is doing it's job.... now let it be. Don't try to fix something that isn't broken. I am also admittedly very concerned with the effects and consequences of what this change will bring, as I am sure many are who don't support gay marriage.
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  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I'm not sure why threads about legal/government recognized gay marriage end up in discussions about interpereting the Bible anyway.

    Yet again, this is an issue that actually has NOTHING to do with religion.
    Cause ultimately the state and politics rely upon religious presuppositions and moral absolutes(which are essential towards establishing concepts of justice among others), like it or not. Without that, all you have is mere arbitrary power, where might makes right. In such a context, you can't argue squat about civil rights or just laws in any meaningful way. That point was made perfectly clear by Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. when outlining the philosophy of the Civil Rights movement(which gay marriage suppporters are so fond of invoking):
    One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

    Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority. Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an "I it" relationship for an "I thou" relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things. Hence segregation is not only politically, economically and sociologically unsound, it is morally wrong and sinful. Paul Tillich has said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression of man's tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness? Thus it is that I can urge men to obey the 1954 decision of the Supreme Court, for it is morally right; and I can urge them to disobey segregation ordinances, for they are morally wrong.

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  9. #149
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Beefeater, if (and only if) your belief is based on as a fully elaborate and coherent system as you claim, not just in regards to this issue but the whole book, I'll call it fair. Anyone who picks and chooses verses and ideas is someone who is essentially using the text to describe personal preferences, and they are wrong. People who are more open to the whole thing tend to believe stuff I find much more dubious and even bizarre personally, but I do have to respect them for having a solid belief basis, unlike pickers/choosers.

    Anyways, I don't believe in God so I don't even sort of have any imperative to not support gay marriage. I have a feeling further debate may be a moot point.
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  10. #150
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    you people and you're wall's o text I didn't read them so this might have been mentioned. But there has been no proof that has not been refuted that kids raised in a same-sex household grow up any more fucked up than ones in a heterosexual household.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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