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  1. #121
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, that was how I felt too when I was an Inerrantist. (That was about the only way I could feel, since from any other angle I couldn't justify the stance. I was kind of stuck supporting things that didn't ring true to life experience.) It's a sticky situation to find yourself in.
    I don't really find myself supporting things that don't ring true to my life experience. Quite, the opposite really. I don't judge people by how nice they are or how normal they seem. I'm well aware that everyone has dark secrets. So, I judge people by how willing they are to humble themselves and be honest about their inherent sinfulness and hold themselves accountable to their spouses, friends and community.

    Ted Haggard seemed like a nice guy.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #122
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I don't really find myself supporting things that don't ring true to my life experience. Quite, the opposite really. I don't judge people by how nice they are or how normal they seem. I'm well aware that everyone has dark secrets. So, I judge people by how willing they are to humble themselves and be honest about their inherent sinfulness and hold themselves accountable to their spouses, friends and community.
    I'm still not really sure what this has to do with the topic of homosexual monogamy. You're failing to seal the deal.

    Ted Haggard seemed like a nice guy.
    I think Haggard actually is a nice guy. His issues to me were more the breaking of trust in his marriage and the lying -- the sexuality had no real impact on how anything played out, to be honest, whether it had been a het affair or a gay tryst (or at least it shouldn't have) -- aside from the fact that the religious culture he found himself in put pressure on him TO resort to a web of lies as he did, and then basically turned its back on him and cut him loose. Both he and the system were culpable for his downfall.

    It was sad to watch the documentary that was made of him, after it was clear he had been ditched by his friends and supporters. People are vicious when their heroes fall off the pedestal they've put them on.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #123
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's not motivated by anything except disgust and hate. Christians freely eat shrimp and lobster, shave their sideburns, wear polyester cotton blends, and might even have sex with their wives on their periods, but dammit to hell if two men want to make love, that's a S.I.N.!!!!!

    I mean, do they force their wives to cover their heads and refrain from speaking in church, because that's in the good book too.

    That piece of literature is so filled with hate, violence, hypocrisy and ignorance, that to pick and choose things that you happen to find unpalatable pretty much is the height of irrationality.

    Especially to take it SO FAR. I think it's become more important to some American Christians to crusade against gays than it is to do good works like feed the poor or house the homeless.
    Marm, you don't care about the truth of the bible so why would I ever engage you in a discussion about biblical interpretation?



    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You can't have a healthy relationship with anyone if you're not sincerely being yourself and loving that person.

    Pretending to be straight decidedly does not increase human happiness or help relationships grow stronger. If anything, the opposite.

    It's just...sadistic.
    I would never advocate someone enter into a relationship with which they are uncomfortable.

    Just because someone doesn't desire what I would deem a permissible relationship doesn't have anything to do with with the rightness or wrongness of other decisions.

    If someone feels more comfortable with bestiality the fact that they wouldn't be comfortable in a traditional marriage has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of bestiality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Enjoy your fairy story.
    LOL.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again, we are not discussing people who are committing adultery, which has trust and betrayal issues regardless of sexual preference. We're discussing moral stigma and legislative prohibition against monogamous homosexuality and family building -- exactly the type of lifelong commitment that the Right would insist was a good thing even when hets abuse and mess up the privilege. Let's not muddy the waters here.
    I've come under attack for upholding any standards of sexual ethics instead of simply letting everyone live and let live. So, I think trying to define the parameters of sexual ethics is entirely pertinent. You think that the line is at betrayal and trust. I think that adultery not only incorporates betrayal and trust issues between the couple, but also between the couple and society. We trust couples to uphold their vows to one another and to do no harm to one another. Simply because there is consent doesn't mean there is still not harm and betrayal to society. For example if a married couple engaged in a threesome they would still be violating their vows to one another and betraying society even if the act was consensual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm still not really sure what this has to do with the topic of homosexual monogamy. You're failing to seal the deal.
    This is the third tactic:

    Sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the arguments.

    Did you read the quote about the bookstore?

    My argument is that beneath the nice clean gay facade is a very sad and sordid reality. We as a society have simply chose to ignore that sordid reality because so many heterosexuals engage in their own sad, self-centered, sexual activity.

    Everyone is pretty aware of the pervasiveness of non-marital sexual activity so let's just lower the standards and make it easy on everyone. You won't judge me and I won't judge you. As opposed to humbly recognizing one's own faults and submitting to accountability.

    According to article I linked to earlier that Gay Christian's experience was not only that people weren't held accountable for promiscuity, but it was actually promoted within gay christian circles.

    Again this is because they are not interested in what is true and good, but what is acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think Haggard actually is a nice guy. His issues to me were more the breaking of trust in his marriage and the lying -- the sexuality had no real impact on how anything played out, to be honest, whether it had been a het affair or a gay tryst (or at least it shouldn't have) -- aside from the fact that the religious culture he found himself in put pressure on him TO resort to a web of lies as he did, and then basically turned its back on him and cut him loose. Both he and the system were culpable for his downfall.

    It was sad to watch the documentary that was made of him, after it was clear he had been ditched by his friends and supporters. People are vicious when their heroes fall off the pedestal they've put them on.

    Right, and that's my point. I think too often the church itself doesn't take the insidious nature of sin seriously and prefers to focus on maintaining a facade of righteousness. This is obviously not very CHrist like given that he didn't give a shit about being seen with whores.

    Moreover, the fact that church's more readily accept repentance from those that commit heterosexual adultery over gay adultery is regrettable and unfortunate.

    I'm not going to pretend that the church isn't full of hypocrites.


    Sorry, Guys I got to get going.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Marm, you don't care about the truth of the bible so why would I ever engage you in a discussion about biblical interpretation?
    Your assertion that the Bible is truth is entirely subjective opinion. I'll have you know I was raised Christian and have read the Bible, so I'm not just some person sitting here mocking you out of ignorance of the Biblical truth. NOOOOOOO. I had years to give this thought, and even went back and read the Bible as an adult.

    Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

    It's very difficult for me to comprehend how any adult can take anything with that level of mythology seriously or literally.

  5. #125
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    I just don't think you supporters of marriage equality understand the cost to everyone else.




  6. #126
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    lol @ the bible
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #127
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Your assertion that the Bible is truth is entirely subjective opinion. I'll have you know I was raised Christian and have read the Bible, so I'm not just some person sitting here mocking you out of ignorance of the Biblical truth. NOOOOOOO. I had years to give this thought, and even went back and read the Bible as an adult.

    Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.
    Your familiarity with the bible is irrelevant. You don't hold that it contains entirely objective truth so there is no point in me arguing with you about the objective truth contained in it.

    This is the same reason why it's dumb when christians and others say that the "true" islam is the extremist islam. I consider the islamic bible to be uninspired and thus open to a variety of interpretations. There is no "true" islam so I don't care about arguments about what the koran does or does not say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's very difficult for me to comprehend how any adult can take anything with that level of mythology seriously or literally.
    For someone who supposedly is so committed to reason you sure are incredibly prone to making broad dismissive statements. I've stated before that I don't read the bible literally, rather I read and interpret it according to the genre of the particular book. Not reading an apostolic letter literally would be just as foolish as reading apocalyptic imagery in revelations literally.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #128
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I just don't think you supporters of marriage equality understand the cost to everyone else.



    And the fourth tactic which is similar to the second is complete mischaracterization of the opposing argument.

    Edit to add: If you have truth and goodness on your side why do you engage in disingenuous tactics. I can't imagine you've engaged in these online debates and really believe this is what the opposition believes.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Your familiarity with the bible is irrelevant. You don't hold that it contains entirely objective truth so there is no point in me arguing with you about the objective truth contained in it.
    I am sitting in chair. There is a table in front of me. I am drinking tea. I am listening to Duran Duran. This is objective truth.

    The stories in the Bible are not objective truth, whether I would choose to adhere to the principles there in or not. As an adult I could in no way convince myself to jump through the outrageous loopholes of logic and hypocrisy and craziness in that book to believe it other than to say that Jesus was a nice guy.

    On a possibly unrelated note, I've noticed how rabid religious behavior is always attributed to SJs, but two of the people I've met who were completely incapable of believing in any mythology even as children, even as children they recognized how improbable it all was...are SJs.

    So never fear, I'm not going to attribute this to your MBTI type. I just don't understand what makes some people capable of believing things which are completely preposterous and easily disproven, and are contadicted even within the pages of the same text.

    For someone who supposedly is so committed to reason you sure are incredibly prone to making broad dismissive statements. I've stated before that I don't read the bible literally, rather I read and interpret it according to the genre of the particular book. Not reading an apostolic letter literally would be just as foolish as reading apocalyptic imagery in revelations literally.
    If you were thoughtful enough to read Leviticus in context you'd have a serious problem with eating shellfish and shaving your face, too. Since you've decided that being gay is so much more offensive than having bacon for breakfast, I mistakenly presumed you were one of those people who took the Bible literally, but even if you don't, the level of hypocrisy here with you vigilantly decrying one thing in Leviticus but not another is surely enough.

  10. #130
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Edit to add: If you have truth and goodness on your side why do you engage in disingenuous tactics. I can't imagine you've engaged in these online debates and really believe this is what the opposition believes.
    My opposition believes their right to discriminate is more important than my right to not be discriminated against. That is not a view I respect nor give any credence to.

    In my country equal marriage has over 60% support. It will happen. You are the minority, but not the righteous minority.

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