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  1. #111
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Would you judge a doctor who divorced his wife shortly after supporting him through med school because he fell in love with a nurse?
    Yes. There's a victim there. Who's the victim in two guys getting married? Unless your example is what happened: there probably isn't one except butthurt folks 400 miles away that never met them.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    This is the great lie.
    Not to me, as a consequentialist. I'm not some deontological moral absolutist.

    I think people like you are borderline insane.

  3. #113
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I'll also add...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But why can't you keep those ethics to yourself? You don't think gay sex is moral for whatever reason, then fine, don't do it. To me sex is a very personal thing, it transcends so many other aspects of the human experience, because it's a part of intimacy. It's just so individual and deep and complex, and it's just like....none of your business.

    If there is no victim, there is no crime. If there is no pain and suffering, there was no evil done.
    This is amazing to me. How can human activity that is so incredibly intimate and personal also not be the most prone to suffering and pain?

    Just because choose freely to do something does not mean it is free from pain and suffering. Moreover, I think plenty of porn addicts would admit that they actually feel very little power over their own habits, but are rather controlled by them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It disgusts me. Like people like you are the unethical ones, in my opinion, because you care more about tradition and appearances and some bullshit fairy story than human happiness and human relationships.
    There a lot of people who are more concerned about appearances and tradition just for the sake of tradition. Those people make me sad and angry, too, because their lives are devoid of true happiness.

    But, simply because those people exist doesn't mean that certain rules and standards about sexual ethics can enable human happiness and help relationships grow.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #114
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    This is the other tactic:

    Marginalize those that do make claims about a need for sexual ethics to be bizarre sex obsessed radicals.

    I get no thrill out of opposing same-sex marriage. It is no fun holding a view that immediately marks me as a hateful ignoramus in the eyes of many people. But, at the same time I feel a need to maintain a consistent worldview that is not based on what is popular or not.
    Yeah, that was how I felt too when I was an Inerrantist. (That was about the only way I could feel, since from any other angle I couldn't justify the stance. I was kind of stuck supporting things that didn't ring true to life experience.) It's a sticky situation to find yourself in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Just because choose freely to do something does not mean it is free from pain and suffering. Moreover, I think plenty of porn addicts would admit that they actually feel very little power over their own habits, but are rather controlled by them.
    I guess this only has relevance if you consider monogamous homosexual activity to be on the level of porn addiction.

    There a lot of people who are more concerned about appearances and tradition just for the sake of tradition. Those people make me sad and angry, too, because their lives are devoid of true happiness. But, simply because those people exist doesn't mean that certain rules and standards about sexual ethics can enable human happiness and help relationships grow.
    All of which is true... yet your job here is to make that connection and explain why this is relevant to homosexual monogamy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Yep. So long as it's two consenting adult people, why would anyone give a shit? Some arcane book says anyone works on Sunday needs killing and someone rapes a virgin and she's his wife? You ignore those bullshit moral principles, ignore this one too.

    Can't see anti-gay marriage people being motivated by much more than general disgust and hate. Almost every issue I disagree with, I can see the POV of the other side sympathetically (if not always logically). Here? I don't see it. I can only logically find that just think the gays are weird, gross, or lesser, or, in the best case, are brainwashed into accepting this Biblically gooblety-gook when it appears in the same book as the rule that says don't trim your hair or beard, and can ignore the fact that divorce is just as terrible a sin against marriage's sanctity.

    How about that for a solution? If gay people can get married, then anyone married in the church can't be divorced, to protect the sanctity of marriage. It'd be kind of a bitch when them believers have to actually sacrifice something, I'll bet.
    It's not motivated by anything except disgust and hate. Christians freely eat shrimp and lobster, shave their sideburns, wear polyester cotton blends, and might even have sex with their wives on their periods, but dammit to hell if two men want to make love, that's a S.I.N.!!!!!

    I mean, do they force their wives to cover their heads and refrain from speaking in church, because that's in the good book too.

    That piece of literature is so filled with hate, violence, hypocrisy and ignorance, that to pick and choose things that you happen to find unpalatable pretty much is the height of irrationality.

    Especially to take it SO FAR. I think it's become more important to some American Christians to crusade against gays than it is to do good works like feed the poor or house the homeless.

  6. #116
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Not to me, as a consequentialist. I'm not some deontological moral absolutist.

    I think people like you are borderline insane.
    Marm, being called insane by you might be the greatest complement anyone on typoc has ever given me.


    Btw, I'm don't really buy fully into deontology, but I am a moral absolutist.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #117
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    This is amazing to me. How can human activity that is so incredibly intimate and personal also not be the most prone to suffering and pain?

    Just because choose freely to do something does not mean it is free from pain and suffering. Moreover, I think plenty of porn addicts would admit that they actually feel very little power over their own habits, but are rather controlled by them.
    This is an argument all sex or love should be banned, it is not specific to same-sex love or sex.


    There a lot of people who are more concerned about appearances and tradition just for the sake of tradition. Those people make me sad and angry, too, because their lives are devoid of true happiness.

    But, simply because those people exist doesn't mean that certain rules and standards about sexual ethics can enable human happiness and help relationships grow.
    An argument that "Well, the extremists aren't always wrong" (which is generally true) is not sufficient evidence to prove they aren't wrong here.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I'll also add...



    This is amazing to me. How can human activity that is so incredibly intimate and personal also not be the most prone to suffering and pain?

    Just because choose freely to do something does not mean it is free from pain and suffering. Moreover, I think plenty of porn addicts would admit that they actually feel very little power over their own habits, but are rather controlled by them.



    There a lot of people who are more concerned about appearances and tradition just for the sake of tradition. Those people make me sad and angry, too, because their lives are devoid of true happiness.

    But, simply because those people exist doesn't mean that certain rules and standards about sexual ethics can enable human happiness and help relationships grow.
    You can't have a healthy relationship with anyone if you're not sincerely being yourself and loving that person.

    Pretending to be straight decidedly does not increase human happiness or help relationships grow stronger. If anything, the opposite.

    It's just...sadistic.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Marm, being called insane by you might be the greatest complement anyone on typoc has ever given me.
    Enjoy your fairy story.

  10. #120
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Two people loving each other is always good. But, I don't want to live in a society where people refuse to contemplate and decide what it means to love each other. Instead, out of selfish interest to avoid examination of their own lives simply believing that everyone is free to define love for themselves.

    Would you judge a doctor who divorced his wife shortly after supporting him through med school because he fell in love with a nurse?
    Again, we are not discussing people who are committing adultery, which has trust and betrayal issues regardless of sexual preference. We're discussing moral stigma and legislative prohibition against monogamous homosexuality and family building -- exactly the type of lifelong commitment that the Right would insist was a good thing even when hets abuse and mess up the privilege. Let's not muddy the waters here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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