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  1. #101
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I agree with that.

    Remember, I have kids too, and live in a very conservative area, and yet these teenagers have no qualms whatsoever about LGBT peers even while their parents vote Republican. Even my kids have some level of religious issue with gay people (because they attend a conservative church) and yet think the ban on same-sex marriage is either stupid (the INTP) or cruel (the ESFP)... and I honestly have avoided much discussion on the issue. I think they told me more about their beliefs on this issue before I ever shared much about mine.

    They also seem to separate personal beliefs from political legislation, whereas I remember growing up in the 80's in conservative land and it was all very much about having one's personal beliefs legislated (especially regarding abortion rights). And, finally, another difference from when I grew up is that no one knew anyone gay or trans -- it was always something that happened in the big "crime-ridden" cities and thus could be labeled as "depravity" since no one had ever experienced LGBT people. Nowadays my kids have gay friends in school, or someone is the child of gay parents. These are not crazy strangers doing illicit things, these are people they can put a face on and know and love, and they are people who they perceive to be as good and normal as they are. So of course they're more sympathetic.

    So that's another reason why I see a trend, like a slow-building wave that's eventually going to build up to significant size. We're still seeing a lot of holdover from the Boomers, but that's not always going to be there. The kids coming in are far, far more open even when they're raised by non-liberal parents. It's kind of amazing to see the generation gap on this topic.

    Hmmm.... interesting, because I think I had different experiences. I had two gay guys in my circle in high school, and I worked with one at Baskin Robbins, so I was exposed earlier and knew two gay guys well. One of them had a mother who was well-known in the community, and they were conservative. He still attends a christian church. Then I dated someone who was bi- for 7 years.... so even though many people around me were conservative, there were gays in the community who were pretty well-accepted and well-liked. I went to a somewhat "preppy" school in the south. This was not a big city, but a rural area.
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  2. #102
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Wow, only 53 percent? Humanity is stupid, lol. It's rising because it was abysmally low. Nothing exciting.
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  3. #103
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And, finally, another difference from when I grew up is that no one knew anyone gay or trans -- it was always something that happened in the big "crime-ridden" cities and thus could be labeled as "depravity" since no one had ever experienced LGBT people. Nowadays my kids have gay friends in school, or someone is the child of gay parents. These are not crazy strangers doing illicit things, these are people they can put a face on and know and love, and they are people who they perceive to be as good and normal as they are. So of course they're more sympathetic.

    So that's another reason why I see a trend, like a slow-building wave that's eventually going to build up to significant size. We're still seeing a lot of holdover from the Boomers, but that's not always going to be there. The kids coming in are far, far more open even when they're raised by non-liberal parents. It's kind of amazing to see the generation gap on this topic.

    Well, yes that's what the gay rights movement has always been about; acceptability and respectability. What so many people misunderstand is that there is no necessary correlation between what is good and true and what is socially respectable and acceptable. But, it is much easier to establish something as normal rather than good.



    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Exactly. The problem is that most people are saying "why is this even an issue, who cares?" so a lot of people who support gay marriage don't bother voting. It's also a demographics thing - young people vote less than old people, and young people are on average way more liberal than old people.
    What I wrote above is why I think so many people have a live and let live attitude about same-sex marriage, but don't passionately support it. It's the natural product of the gay rights propaganda.

    This all reminds me of one gay man's experience:

    There was a "gay" bookstore called Lobo's in Austin, Texas, when I was living there as a grad student. The layout was interesting. Looking inside from the street all you saw were books. It looked like any other bookstore. There was a section devoted to classic "gay" fiction by writers such as Oscar Wilde, Gertrude Stein, and W.H. Auden. There were biographies of prominent "gay" icons, some of whom, like Walt Whitman, would probably have accepted the homosexual label, but many of whom, like Whitman's idol, President Lincoln, had been commandeered for the cause on the basis of evidence no stronger than a bad marriage or an intense same-sex friendship. There were impassioned modern "gay" memoirs, and historical accounts of the origins and development of the "gay rights" movement. It all looked so innocuous and disarmingly bourgeois. But if you went inside to browse, before long you noticed another section, behind the books, a section not visible from the street. The pornography section. Hundreds and hundredsof pornographic videos, all involving men, but otherwise catering to every conceivable sexual taste or fantasy. And you would notice something else too. There were no customers in the front. All the customers were in the back, rooting through the videos. As far as I know, I am the only person who ever actually purchased a book at Lobo's. The books were, in every sense of the word, a front for the porn.

    So why waste thousands of dollars on books that no one was going to buy? It was clear from the large "on sale" section that only a pitifully small number of books were ever purchased at their original price. The owners of Lobo's were apparently wasting a lot of money on gay novels and works of gay history, when all the real money was in pornography. But the money spent on books wasn't wasted. It was used to purchase a commodity that is more precious than gold to the gay rights establishment. Respectability. Respectability and the appearance of normalcy. Without that investment, we would not now be engaged in a serious debate about the legalization of same-sex "marriage." By the time I lived in Austin, I had been thinking of myself as a gay man for almost 20 years. Based on the experience acquired during those years, I recognized in Lobo's a metaphor for the strategy used to sell gay rights to the American people, and for the sordid reality that strategy concealed.
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  4. #104
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    How can anyone in their right mind be so obsessed with what other people do in their bedrooms?

    Who does that? Who sits around having thoughts like "gee I wish I could control what other people I don't even know choose to do in their romantic and/sexual relationships and/or committed partnerships!!!!"

    It boggles my mind.

    It seems like some kind of fetish. Like naughty. Like you wouldn't want to do it, but you think about other people doing it and get a little thrill, and feel guilty so you speak out it against it.

    I DON'T UNDERSTAND. SOMEONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHY OTHER PEOPLE CARE SO MUCH ABOUT WHO ANOTHER PERSON WANTS TO SLEEP WITH OR MARRY.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Well, yes that's what the gay rights movement has always been about; acceptability and respectability. What so many people misunderstand is that there is no necessary correlation between what is good and true and what is socially respectable and acceptable. But, it is much easier to establish something as normal rather than good.
    Who are you to say two people loving each other isn't good?

  6. #106
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    How can anyone in their right mind be so obsessed with what other people do in their bedrooms?

    Who does that? Who sits around having thoughts like "gee I wish I could control what other people I don't even know choose to do in their romantic and/sexual relationships and/or committed partnerships!!!!"

    It boggles my mind.

    It seems like some kind of fetish. Like naughty. Like you wouldn't want to do it, but you think about other people doing it and get a little thrill, and feel guilty so you speak out it against it.

    I DON'T UNDERSTAND. SOMEONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHY OTHER PEOPLE CARE SO MUCH ABOUT WHO ANOTHER PERSON WANTS TO SLEEP WITH OR MARRY.
    This is the other tactic:

    Marginalize those that do make claims about a need for sexual ethics to be bizarre sex obsessed radicals.

    I get no thrill out of opposing same-sex marriage. It is no fun holding a view that immediately marks me as a hateful ignoramus in the eyes of many people. But, at the same time I feel a need to maintain a consistent worldview that is not based on what is popular or not.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    This is the other tactic:

    Marginalize those that do make claims about a need for sexual ethics to be bizarre sex obsessed radicals.

    I get no thrill out of opposing same-sex marriage. It is no fun holding a view that immediately marks me as a hateful ignoramus in the eyes of many people. But, at the same time I feel a need to maintain a consistent worldview that is not based on what is popular or not.
    But why can't you keep those ethics to yourself? You don't think gay sex is moral for whatever reason, then fine, don't do it. To me sex is a very personal thing, it transcends so many other aspects of the human experience, because it's a part of intimacy. It's just so individual and deep and complex, and it's just like....none of your business.

    If there is no victim, there is no crime. If there is no pain and suffering, there was no evil done.

    Control freaks piss me off, especially when it comes to telling other human beings who they should be or who they should love.

    It's one thing to keep the streets safe, it's entirely another to want to police what people do in the most intimate, private aspect of their lives.

    It disgusts me. Like people like you are the unethical ones, in my opinion, because you care more about tradition and appearances and some bullshit fairy story than human happiness and human relationships.

  8. #108
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Who are you to say two people loving each other isn't good?
    Two people loving each other is always good.

    But, I don't want to live in a society where people refuse to contemplate and decide what it means to love each other. Instead, out of selfish interest to avoid examination of their own lives simply believing that everyone is free to define love for themselves.

    Would you judge a doctor who divorced his wife shortly after supporting him through med school because he fell in love with a nurse?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  9. #109
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    If there is no victim, there is no crime. If there is no pain and suffering, there was no evil done.
    This is the great lie.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #110
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    How can anyone in their right mind be so obsessed with what other people do in their bedrooms?
    Yep. So long as it's two consenting adult people, why would anyone give a shit? Some arcane book says anyone works on Sunday needs killing and someone rapes a virgin and she's his wife? You ignore those bullshit moral principles, ignore this one too.

    Can't see anti-gay marriage people being motivated by much more than general disgust and hate. Almost every issue I disagree with, I can see the POV of the other side sympathetically (if not always logically). Here? I don't see it. I can only logically find that just think the gays are weird, gross, or lesser, or, in the best case, are brainwashed into accepting this Biblically gooblety-gook when it appears in the same book as the rule that says don't trim your hair or beard, and can ignore the fact that divorce is just as terrible a sin against marriage's sanctity.

    How about that for a solution? If gay people can get married, then anyone married in the church can't be divorced, to protect the sanctity of marriage. It'd be kind of a bitch when them believers have to actually sacrifice something, I'll bet.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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