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  1. #91
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Media sources always claim this (support for same sex marriage is rising). They are trying to get people to vote for it, but it never works.
    Don't ever believe the news lol; it always has a slant one way or another...... Only some of it is true, but never all.

    K- basically we have this in Cali:

    On the March 7, 2000 primary election, Proposition 22 was adopted by a vote of 61.4% to 38%, thus adding § 308.5 to the Family Code, largely replicating the 1977 enactment. The one-sentence code section explicitly defined the union of a man and a woman as the only valid or recognizable form of marriage in the State of California.

    In 2000 - 38% For, 62% Opposed.

    Then, we have:
    For several weeks in 2004, the mayor of San Francisco issued marriage licenses regardless of applicants' gender. The consolidated lawsuits which resulted eventually reached the Supreme Court of California. On May 15, 2008, it overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage with the ruling In re Marriage Cases.[10] The four-to-three decision took effect on June 16, 2008.[11] Two weeks earlier, the initiative to override this result of the court decision qualified for the November election ballot. The Court declined to stay its decision until after the November elections.[12]

    The ballot initiative, Proposition 8, a state constitutional amendment titled Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry Act,[13] appeared on the California general election ballot in November 2008 and passed with a 52% majority.[

    In 2008 - 48% For, 52% Opposed.

    I have problems believing voting results either..... and don't believe it is true in a lot of cases, but just accept it for what it is, right now, until i get further into it. BUT.... according to these results, the next election, we may see a win for gay people, and they will get their marriages......

    I do have trouble believing that, with actually 52% opposed voters in 2008 in possibly the most liberal state in the nation, over half the nation is FOR gay marriage. I think half of California voters might be, but the validity of the polls is very questionable in my mind. I think it's more likely that when asked, half the nation could be, but really, it just doesn't affect a good percentage and they are apathetic. The people who REALLY care and go to the polls in droves are religious folk and gay people.
    Last edited by ICUP; 05-23-2011 at 05:16 PM.
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  2. #92
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    In New Hampshire, gay marriage was passed by the state legislature. I'm not aware of another case in the US where it was passed by the legislature rather than being required by the judiciary.
    That's interesting. I must have missed that one. Well at least gay rights got an electoral victory in one state. I still have trouble believing there is a nationwide majority, but actually getting a majority in one state is an important first step.

    For Prop 8 in California in 2008, final votes were 52.3% banning marriage vs. 47.7% allowing gay marriage (opinion polls varying, with a majority polling against gay marriage). In Maine in 2009, voters voted for banning gay marriage 53%-47% (even though polling results were 47% for gay marriage, 45% against, 8% unsure).
    That Maine result looks a lot like a "Bradley Effect" with the 8% unsure actually voting against gay marriage when the time came.

    If it were the top priority bar none, I would agree. However, in the real world political maneuvering is much more complicated. Even the repeal of DADT (which had 67% support) was a long, hard struggle on the federal level. Real world politics is more pragmatic, and given the risk of veto or reduced chances of re-election, many legislatures will give it a pass.
    Politicians support the issues that they think will get them elected. The "pragmatic" view is the one that says "I'm not going to put much effort toward this, because not many people want it." Although I'm still thinking more at the state level than the federal level. I don't see gay rights having much of a chance at the federal level until most of the states have something in place.

    So... four polls in a row by different organizations are statistical anomaly? That's a pretty big anomaly. I agree the trend could easily reverse, but it's hard to deny there's some kind of trend (whether in actual opinion, or the kind of opinion that people are willing to express).
    Well I'm naturally skeptical. If there is a trend then I'd like to know what caused it. Did something happen recently to cause a big shift? If so I'm not aware of it.
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  3. #93
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's not too crazy when you learn more about the issue involved, as Johann Hari has pointed out: "This is a taboo topic for a gay left-wing man like me to touch, but there has always been a weird, disproportionate overlap between homosexuality and fascism."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann..._b_136697.html
    Meh, that's just those sexy uniforms by Hugo Boss.

    As for the topic at hand (too lazy to read 10 pages to check if this has been discussed): A lot of it seems to come down to what marriage means. I remember my literature teacher once commenting as an aside that marriages were originally celebrated in front of the church/temple, etc. because it was a public place and was only later integrated into the service and thus with time became a sacrament but started out as two people publicly announcing: Just so you know, we are together, so if one of us dies, don't touch our stuff, it belongd to the surviving partner.

    IF you see it as a business partnership or teaming up for better survival chances and/or raising kids, there is little point in giving preference to childless heterosexual couples over childless homosexual couples (let alone families with same sex parents). Germany and Luxemburg are, to the best of my knowledge, the only countries that give preferencial tax treatment to couples just for wearing a ring, no matter if they have children or not. I'm all for supporting families with kids, but my country actively subsidises marriage for the sake of marriage, so people often marry for tax benefits more than anything else. What's so protection worthy about that?
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  4. #94
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I'm all for supporting families with kids, but my country actively subsidises marriage for the sake of marriage, so people often marry for tax benefits more than anything else.
    The logic is probably that a.) marriage usually leads to children and b.) its best for children to have two parents. The goal is not just welfare for parents with children, but also an attempt to socially engineer demographically sustainable societies by encouraging marriage. The question is, would German fertility levels be even worse without this policy, or has the policy backfired somehow, contributing to the sub-replacement fertility rate? If it actually works as intended, I suspect the rest of Europe will adopt such policies in the near future.

  5. #95
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Well, article 6 of the German constitution says: "Marriage and families enjoy the special protection of the state".

    That can be interpreted (and often is interpreted) as a protection of the state of marriage beyond that of families. We have no real gay marriage peer se but a registered partnership which gives you basically the same rights as a heterosexual marriage but is explicitely not a marriage: the German constitutional court even stated that this was the case and that therefor it was no threat to the constitutionally mandated state protection of marriage!

    Besides, unmarried couples with children have the same rights now as married couples withj children, so I dont really think this applies anymore.

    As for our fertility rate (whoch I think has more to do with mediocre job marked for women and insufficient kindergarden places):

    This is our age structure:


    And this our fertility rate (births per woman):

    light line = East Germany medium line= West Germany dark line=after reunification


    The protection of marriage as a constitutionally anchored duty of the state is pretty old, not a new initiative, by the way.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    As for our fertility rate (whoch I think has more to do with mediocre job marked for women and insufficient kindergarden places

    The protection of marriage as a constitutionally anchored duty of the state is pretty old, not a new initiative, by the way.
    1.) I suspect that the factors behind extremely low fertility rates in Europe (as well as the means through which some countries have thus far avoided it) are both varied and differ substantially from region to region. Factors which contribute to low fertility in some countries may in fact contribute to higher fertility levels in other countries, as policies/economic circumstances/culture combine into an unpredictable mix. I doubt the relatively high fertility rates in Ireland and Denmark are due to the same inputs, for example.

    2.) In that case, my presumption must be wrong.

  7. #97
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    The people who REALLY care and go to the polls in droves are religious folk and gay people.
    Well, I agree with that.

    Remember, I have kids too, and live in a very conservative area, and yet these teenagers have no qualms whatsoever about LGBT peers even while their parents vote Republican. Even my kids have some level of religious issue with gay people (because they attend a conservative church) and yet think the ban on same-sex marriage is either stupid (the INTP) or cruel (the ESFP)... and I honestly have avoided much discussion on the issue. I think they told me more about their beliefs on this issue before I ever shared much about mine.

    They also seem to separate personal beliefs from political legislation, whereas I remember growing up in the 80's in conservative land and it was all very much about having one's personal beliefs legislated (especially regarding abortion rights). And, finally, another difference from when I grew up is that no one knew anyone gay or trans -- it was always something that happened in the big "crime-ridden" cities and thus could be labeled as "depravity" since no one had ever experienced LGBT people. Nowadays my kids have gay friends in school, or someone is the child of gay parents. These are not crazy strangers doing illicit things, these are people they can put a face on and know and love, and they are people who they perceive to be as good and normal as they are. So of course they're more sympathetic.

    So that's another reason why I see a trend, like a slow-building wave that's eventually going to build up to significant size. We're still seeing a lot of holdover from the Boomers, but that's not always going to be there. The kids coming in are far, far more open even when they're raised by non-liberal parents. It's kind of amazing to see the generation gap on this topic.
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  8. #98
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Media sources always claim this (support for same sex marriage is rising). They are trying to get people to vote for it, but it never works.
    Don't ever believe the news lol; it always has a slant one way or another...... Only some of it is true, but never all.

    K- basically we have this in Cali:

    On the March 7, 2000 primary election, Proposition 22 was adopted by a vote of 61.4% to 38%, thus adding § 308.5 to the Family Code, largely replicating the 1977 enactment. The one-sentence code section explicitly defined the union of a man and a woman as the only valid or recognizable form of marriage in the State of California.

    In 2000 - 38% For, 62% Opposed.

    Then, we have:
    For several weeks in 2004, the mayor of San Francisco issued marriage licenses regardless of applicants' gender. The consolidated lawsuits which resulted eventually reached the Supreme Court of California. On May 15, 2008, it overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage with the ruling In re Marriage Cases.[10] The four-to-three decision took effect on June 16, 2008.[11] Two weeks earlier, the initiative to override this result of the court decision qualified for the November election ballot. The Court declined to stay its decision until after the November elections.[12]

    The ballot initiative, Proposition 8, a state constitutional amendment titled Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry Act,[13] appeared on the California general election ballot in November 2008 and passed with a 52% majority.[

    In 2008 - 48% For, 52% Opposed.

    I have problems believing voting results either..... and don't believe it is true in a lot of cases, but just accept it for what it is, right now, until i get further into it. BUT.... according to these results, the next election, we may see a win for gay people, and they will get their marriages......

    I do have trouble believing that, with actually 52% opposed voters in 2008 in possibly the most liberal state in the nation, over half the nation is FOR gay marriage. I think half of California voters might be, but the validity of the polls is very questionable in my mind. I think it's more likely that when asked, half the nation could be, but really, it just doesn't affect a good percentage and they are apathetic. The people who REALLY care and go to the polls in droves are religious folk and gay people.
    Exactly. The problem is that most people are saying "why is this even an issue, who cares?" so a lot of people who support gay marriage don't bother voting. It's also a demographics thing - young people vote less than old people, and young people are on average way more liberal than old people.

    I think and hope gay equality will become more acceptable in the states as the old fogies die off.

    Whenever the issue comes up in conversation here (in Canada) it's basically old news, although there's still some redneck whining every so often. Our society shows no sign of collapsing anytime soon. Our children are not all growing up lost and confused and full of gayness.
    -end of thread-

  9. #99
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Whenever the issue comes up in conversation here (in Canada) it's basically old news, although there's still some redneck whining every so often. Our society shows no sign of collapsing anytime soon. Our children are not all growing up lost and confused and full of gayness.
    An American conservative always ignore the lack of apocalypse in other nations.
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  10. #100
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    Or worse, gay robots.
    too late

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