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  1. #61
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Whatever dude, you knew what I meant, its the same difference. No, I dont think embryos are people, they're no good at all for conversation.

    Yeah, what agenda do I have? I dont believe embryos are people for what should be obvious enough not to require comment or argument, you mean to say anyone who miscarriages is a murderer? That's just wonderful that.
    I don't know why I even try to have a conversation with you.

  2. #62
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    Personally, I don't think any rights vest in the fetus until sentience.

    Prior to that occasion, the rights of the fetus fall on the mother, or parents as it were.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    One thing to consider, is that even if a fetus is considered a person.. we have to ask if it has a right to attach to another person to exist. A fetus simply can not survive on its own, and usually requires the womb and mother. Does any other person have the right to attach to another for existance? No. So the question is why should the fetus or embryo have this right? (I'm not saying it shouldn't,) I'm asking why it would have greater rights than any other person....
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #64
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Recognize the trap here... should we accept the premise that a human isn't a person if they're in the womb? Should we accept that a human in utero may be disposed of in the service of other, higher priorities, such as the mother's right to choose?

    Because if so, then there might be other conditions under which a human isn't a person and may be disposed of in the service of other, higher priorities. The family's wish, for example, or the insurance company's mandate. Or the interest of the state.
    :c I'm not trapping anyone.. Im just asking opinions. However, If we were to stick to nature, abortions would be a fact of life, nothing unnatural or morally wrong. Our intelligence and our morals that we've created for ourselves is what affects this issue.. So how far it goes should be up to us as well, shouldn't it? Maybe that is idealistic of me.. Surely we're not going to start saying "Kill all the 'tards too!! A-hyuk!" if people do not feel abortion is murder in one way or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    What about traditional women? We don't count? Well, that sucks.
    Hux posted and I don't think she fits the bill as well. I was requesting, and hopefully attracting, a certain demographic for sure.. but feel free to lend your own opinion, Little. You're always welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    no he's actually right on this one. it's only one factor among several, but overall women are more biologically designed to be nurturing than men are, as I say this as a very nurturing man
    I don't think that at all. I think at one time men might have been less nurturing.. But how can you say men are less nurturing than women? Because the way they express it is different on average? It is narrow-minded to say men are less nurturing. Look how passionate men are about abortion, to TRY to keep this on track. They genuinely care, and have strong passionate feelings and thoughts on the issue of potential children, and not even their own! How can one even imply that fathers are less nurturing than mothers.. It is individual, for sure.. and the way of expression is different, but this is with everyone in the world. Men are nurturing. The end.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I don't know why I even try to have a conversation with you.
    :c
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I don't know why I even try to have a conversation with you.
    Well you know dont strain yourself with all that trying and all. You tried really hard with a single hostile as all hell post and all.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Personally, I don't think any rights vest in the fetus until sentience.

    Prior to that occasion, the rights of the fetus fall on the mother, or parents as it were.
    +1

  7. #67
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Personally, I don't think any rights vest in the fetus until sentience.

    Prior to that occasion, the rights of the fetus fall on the mother, or parents as it were.
    Not saying this is completely shocking, but it is unique.. something I didn't expect from you. (I suppose I thought you'd go the more lark-esque route.) This is an interesting thought since this is how the world is ran with children--while they have some basic rights, many of their rights fall into the parents.. children don't get total freedom of speech, that right goes to their parents, etc. What a fetus, which isn't as matured as a child, and then a zygote, and then none at all of the above.. it seems like a logical conclusion the rights would get smaller, and trickle down steadily into "it has none." I suppose the debate is where that point is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    One thing to consider, is that even if a fetus is considered a person.. we have to ask if it has a right to attach to another person to exist. A fetus simply can not survive on its own, and usually requires the womb and mother. Does any other person have the right to attach to another for existance? No. So the question is why should the fetus or embryo have this right? (I'm not saying it shouldn't,) I'm asking why it would have greater rights than any other person....
    Which ties well into this post for sure. Children have a right to depend on their parents.. we see that with neglect and abuse laws. They have a right to live, since killing a child is punished by law. Abandoning a newborn also comes with consequences if you don't drop it off at a hospital or something. Adults do not have these rights anymore.. it is not neglect to not feed your 26 year old son living in your basement dinner. The law is there to protect the only real right kids seem to have--the right to live.

    But like I said just now.. the right to live is guaranteed by born children, and almost-to-be-born children.. Where that right stops.. I don't know. At least, for now in America, it is the second trimester. (I think abortions are not questioned so much in the first, and special circumstances on the second... I THINK those are the current laws.)
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Whatever dude, you knew what I meant, its the same difference. No, I dont think embryos are people, they're no good at all for conversation.



    Yeah, what agenda do I have? I dont believe embryos are people for what should be obvious enough not to require comment or argument, you mean to say anyone who miscarriages is a murderer? That's just wonderful that.
    I actually agree with Lark!

  9. #69
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I actually agree with Lark!
    I can read between the lines.

    I know you love me Marmie.


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