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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    Traditionally our ancestors practised infanticide for children with disabilities, or those which they otherwise couldn't support or offload to another family.

    I personally think abortion is preferable to that.
    I can agree with that but its pretty undesirable compared to simply not conceiving unwanted pregnancies altogether.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    That passage was super helpful in figuring out where you stand exactly. Thank you for participating.
    No bother, out of interest am I part of the select group you were aiming to solicit the views of?

    I just summarized key points as I read through it.. This post was pretty interesting.
    Its interesting the way you did that, I were to summarise it I'd have picked out abortion is oversubscribed, its a cultural thing, its got to be stopped, even if it involves massive intervention in the procreative capacity of the male population. I'm actually in favour of a scheme in which all fifthteen to eighteen year olds, male and female, are give contraceptive implants, the same as vacinations, and which people need to opt out of rather than opt into. I'm in favour of the same for organ donation were it is not going to maximise profits for corporations, their boards and shareholders.

    I'm certain it'd make abortion a dead issue, it would also off set accidents or the behaviour of children were there's parental neglect, the only downside to it that I can think of would be that abuse or incest may go undetected (yes, pregnancies are one way in which those things are discovered by the authorities).

    Hm. This is the second comment I've gotten in this thread about that. I wanted a very particular's demographic's thoughts on the issue.. The OP was never intended to mention if men feel differently than women, or if women should x or y.. I simply want to know what conservative, traditional men feel about the questions I posed. It could very well be horrid wording on my part, I seem to have gotten the wrong message across somehow.
    Perhaps its not a male-female divide but a traditional male/female vs. non-traditional male/female thing, I just commented because I see a lot of womans rights or womans liberation comment on abortion which isnt actually reflective or representative of how women feel.

    I think most abortions have nothing to do with the rape-incest mentions.. I only mentioned it because my inspiration had one of it's arguing points as it would take away abortion rights for people that do have extreme cases.. thus, I felt it necessary to pose questions regarding those topics, since although rare, they are being affected. I don't think opposing abortions are secret control mechanisms for women, I'm not huge on the whole conspiracy theories.. If it is though, they've done an upstanding job convincing women to be pro-life. More than likely, it has to do with religious upbringings, philosophy, and the ethics and morals of individual people.
    .

    Perhaps but while many of my views, for instance on the profile of homosexuality, secularism/progressivism, abortion are shared by people with religious backgrounds or upbringing I would suggest that, at least in my instance, its possible to believe what I do on each of those topics without any reference to religious scruples or convictions.

    Largely I think that religion is a matter of private conscience, in fact if religion has a profile because it is allied to temporal power and is abscent from the daily, unmonitored behaviour of individuals at large its a charade. This is part of the reason the liberal cultural agenda will fail, you can structure, restructure and legislate all you want but you cant control how people think and feel or if you are left with broken individuals like at the finish of 1984 or Brazil, no brave new world of your own designing.

    I like your avatar, I liked those comics and was disappointed to find out they'd been discontinued

  3. #53
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In other words, I wish for mutual respect in the 'mommy wars,' but with a (slight) emphasis on traditional gender norms, on a strictly voluntary basis... I personally oppose abortion in most circumstances ... I also support contraceptive use... reliable contraception is absolutely necessary... I also support abortion in the case of reasonable danger to the mother's health, as well as rape or incest.. I'm highly conflicted on this issue and my ultimate stance is simultaneously nebulous and strongly held-just like most other people's.
    Thank you for your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    Early term fetuses are parasitic and not yet viable, so they are not yet "human beings" and merely in a transitionary state. If they were human beings, they would be recognised by the state as citizens and therefore have full legal protections. Ergo, empirically early term abortion is not murder.
    It could be argued that since it will turn into nothing but a human, it must therefore be human.. even if it doesn't have the capabilities (nor is it necessary for it to) to do anything that the state would need to recognize. Like I said.. this is a highly-controversial ethical argument.. I'm not looking for whether the opinions of the demographic are right or wrong. Simply asking what they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I think they are referring to Blan B, or something of the like. Conception does not always immediately occur, I believe its possible for sperm to live up to 72 hours before it meets egg and conceives. They are saying medically induce menstruation before actual conception. I don't know if they can really tell if it has occured or not, that quickly.
    This is what immediately popped into my mind, was Plan B.. but the latter with the inducing menstrutation seems more viable for pro-life supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Except, as far as I know, there's nothing innate about black people than lends them to Bass playing. Biology and chemistry (hormones) do lend women into a more "nurturing" role.
    That is in YOUR thread, not mine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Abortion is a tricky issue. I'm all for freedom of choice... "Pro-choice" is silly because you're choosing for someone who isn't even born yet. I can "choose" to kill you right now; would that fit under the umbrella of "freedom of choice"... The problem is that fetuses aren't really totally "human" yet. I would personally draw the line at six months... how happy will that baby really be if the mother doesn't even want it? I'm for abortion in cases of rape and incest, by the way.
    :/ You're not really a traditional, conservative male.. but thanks for you input anyways. Minus the trying to tie your thread into mine bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Men and women have clearly defined roles that are defined through biology and neuroscience...
    Again, your thread, not mine. This is an entirely different issue. Stop trolling plz kthnx.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    It's a fairly difficult OP to answer, because even though I might consider myself as a 'somewhat' traditional male in Scotland, none of the things identified in the OP are relevant to what a traditional Scottish male would see themselves as. Someone's going to have to go over to the states and drag the American's kicking and screaming into the enlightenment one of these days.
    I suppose so? What is the stance of a traditional male in Scotland??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    With regard to abortions, I believe that a woman, if not committed to a serious relationship ... in which the conception occurred, should be granted final authority ... Yes [for abortions that endanger the lives of the mother]... [on raising a child of rape/incest] If the child was already born, then of course I would find it preferable that it remain with its biological mother... Regarding incest, the act itself produces harmful effects that should be eliminated; therefore, the fetus (or, depending upon the health, the baby) should be aborted through state action... Men constitute a significant segment of society and so deserve the ability to vote upon such issues. These issues impact more than the woman in question or women in general: they impact society. However, I do not quite understand this question. Do you care to elaborate?
    One the main things I hear from women is this idea that "Since men never have to go through such a process, their say in it isn't as valuable." .. An idea I don't agree with for the reasons you mentioned just now, but since I hear it a lot, the question was posed.

    I find the "women can do whatever they want with their own bodies" argument to be childish and irresponsible. If it were parroted under any topic other than abortion, it would be recognized as such. In order for a society to function successfully, that society must be cohesive. If a society is founded upon alienation, then it is a contentious and feeble society. If men and women cannot rationally define social responsibility, then the future generations are doomed.
    Thank you for your input. Even with all the derailing I'm still getting some awesome responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Only in the situations where men don't want to deal with women... Any major decision is to be made by the father or husband of the woman... It's a woman's job to raise children... Women shouldn't be voting... Women should focus their attention on housework and not complicated tasks like "thinking".


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The topic is the traditional male perspective on abortion / abortion rights... not inherent gender differences.

    Please stick to topic, thanks.
    Ty

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No bother, out of interest am I part of the select group you were aiming to solicit the views of?
    While I currently can't think of anyone on the forum more traditional than you, you were not a specific in my mind when it came to this, if that helps. But I was happy you responded, since you do fit the bill of the sort I was looking for. I cannot help but sound a bit sarcastic when describing traditional mindsets, but I truly just wanted opinions.

    Its interesting the way you did that, I were to summarise it I'd have picked out abortion is oversubscribed, its a cultural thing, its got to be stopped, even if it involves massive intervention in the procreative capacity of the male population. I'm actually in favour of a scheme in which all fifthteen to eighteen year olds, male and female, are give contraceptive implants, the same as vacinations, and which people need to opt out of rather than opt into. I'm in favour of the same for organ donation were it is not going to maximise profits for corporations, their boards and shareholders.
    I think I was just trying to pull out the specifics to my questions, more-so than trying to summarize the entire reply. It was a "Incest/rape answer is x... voting is x..." thing. I wasn't trying to take emphasis away from your disdain of abortions--you made that absolutely clear.

    I'm certain it'd make abortion a dead issue, it would also off set accidents or the behaviour of children were there's parental neglect, the only downside to it that I can think of would be that abuse or incest may go undetected (yes, pregnancies are one way in which those things are discovered by the authorities).
    This is an interesting point as well.. All of my siblings were accidental pregnancies.. and while my mother had no intentions of having us the times she did, she was happy with us, especially later on (i.e. after we were born.) I think most children cannot claim their parents absolutely planned them for when they did. (In the case of my nephew--he was totally planned... but not at the TIME my sister had him. He was suppose to be here a year from now.. so two years after he was conceived.) It'd be an interesting dynamic if we had to opt-out of BC tactics to have a child... And yes, unfortunately that is a way of finding out. :c What an icky topic all-around... (On an unrelated note.. I always wondered if we did start charging women with the murder of unborn children.. would the rapists and incest-abuse personnel be the ones charged with murder instead??.. or would both be charged??.. )


    Perhaps its not a male-female divide but a traditional male/female vs. non-traditional male/female thing, I just commented because I see a lot of womans rights or womans liberation comment on abortion which isnt actually reflective or representative of how women feel
    I think women have a hard time not letting those two issues spill into each other.. It is such a private matter, concerning their own bodies being disrupted, and that some women have to carry the burden of the decision without the fathering other to support them, that I think being objective is especially hard.

    Perhaps but while many of my views, for instance on the profile of homosexuality, secularism/progressivism, abortion are shared by people with religious backgrounds or upbringing I would suggest that, at least in my instance, its possible to believe what I do on each of those topics without any reference to religious scruples or convictions.
    I did notice that right off the bat, it was sorta cool and unexpected.

    I like your avatar, I liked those comics and was disappointed to find out they'd been discontinued
    Oy! I was such a HUGE fan of the series... It enraged me that they never continued it, even after leaving it at such a huge cliff hanger.. they could have put out at least one more book to tie up some of the loose ends. Poor Stephie is in a never-ending battle with her Uncle now.
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  4. #54
    Oberon
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    Recognize the trap here... should we accept the premise that a human isn't a person if they're in the womb? Should we accept that a human in utero may be disposed of in the service of other, higher priorities, such as the mother's right to choose?

    Because if so, then there might be other conditions under which a human isn't a person and may be disposed of in the service of other, higher priorities. The family's wish, for example, or the insurance company's mandate. Or the interest of the state.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Recognize the trap here... should we accept the premise that a human isn't a person if they're in the womb? Should we accept that a human in utero may be disposed of in the service of other, higher priorities, such as the mother's right to choose?

    Because if so, then there might be other conditions under which a human isn't a person and may be disposed of in the service of other, higher priorities. The family's wish, for example, or the insurance company's mandate. Or the interest of the state.
    Well I dont consider personhood to be from the point of conception Oberon, otherwise masturbation (in men) and monthly cycles (in women) would be abortions too.

    I dont think that accepting abortion results in accepting people being non-entities. That's a bit of a leap. Generally its not needed for those that feel that way anyway.

  6. #56
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    What about traditional women? We don't count? Well, that sucks.

  7. #57
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think that accepting abortion results in accepting people being non-entities.
    Not 'non-entities'... what the hell is an 'entity,' anyway? My cat is an 'entity.'

    I didn't use the word 'entity,' I used the word person. If you don't accept the non-person status of humans in utero, then it follows that you must accept that humans in utero are in fact people, and that killing them is homicide.

    If you're okay with that, that's one thing. But don't pretend it's not the case. Either killing an embryo is murder, or an embryo isn't a person. Those are your choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well I dont consider personhood to be from the point of conception Oberon, otherwise masturbation (in men) and monthly cycles (in women) would be abortions too.
    Gametes alone are neither humans nor people. This is something that people understand when they don't have political agendas.

  8. #58
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Oh get a clue.
    no he's actually right on this one. it's only one factor among several, but overall women are more biologically designed to be nurturing than men are, as I say this as a very nurturing man
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  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Not 'non-entities'... what the hell is an 'entity,' anyway? My cat is an 'entity.'

    I didn't use the word 'entity,' I used the word person. If you don't accept the non-person status of humans in utero, then it follows that you must accept that humans in utero are in fact people, and that killing them is homicide.

    If you're okay with that, that's one thing. But don't pretend it's not the case. Either killing an embryo is murder, or an embryo isn't a person. Those are your choices.
    Whatever dude, you knew what I meant, its the same difference. No, I dont think embryos are people, they're no good at all for conversation.

    Gametes alone are neither humans nor people. This is something that people understand when they don't have political agendas.
    Yeah, what agenda do I have? I dont believe embryos are people for what should be obvious enough not to require comment or argument, you mean to say anyone who miscarriages is a murderer? That's just wonderful that.

  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Gametes alone are neither humans nor people. This is something that people understand when they don't have political agendas.
    So how about a zygote?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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