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  1. #41
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    None of those even comes close to providing conclusive evidence for the proposed behavioral differences between the sexes. All they've done is describe physical differences in brains; the link between those differences and (what happen to be conveniently ideological notions of) behavioral differences is not clear.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...boys-and-girls
    http://academic.udayton.edu/PeggyDes...l_sex_diff.pdf
    http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gend.../dp/0393068382 (This is a good one, I suggest you read it sometime.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Source of my inspiration, though I wasn't going to discuss the act itself: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3/show

    Basically, this whole H.R. 3 thing made me think abour republicans, conservative people, and traditionally-geared mentalities.

    You know who you are.. You're the ones with the "Women have certain places, and that's that" idea. Marriage is One man One Woman. The ones who think Men are from Mars and Women are .. well you know the drill. I'm not here at all to refute or argue with that mentality in this thread either. I want YOUR opinions.

    If you consider yourself, or have been called by others, very tradition in the sense of gender and your thoughts on it.. Here is my question.
    I have never described myself as "conservative," nor do I espouse a political outlook that can be described as "conservative," but my values could be considered conservative in the sense that they are most certainly unlike those propounded by modern liberals (and modern "conservatives," for that matter). They are conservative in that I value organic social order, much of which has precedent in the form of tradition, and due to my rejection of the erroneous belief that progress must entail progress for its own sake.

    With the thought of Abortions being the inspiration in mind..

    -How much say do you think women should have over their own bodies?
    How much say should drug users and prostitutes have? What about children? Clearly, there are social implications for aggregate individual actions. With regard to abortions, I believe that a woman, if not committed to a serious relationship (as perceived by both—or more than two if we wish to bolster the liberal slant—parties) in which the conception occurred, should be granted final authority (provided that there exists no state interest). The woman should be allowed to abort if only for the reason that the child should be welcomed, not considered a burden.

    -Do you feel it is a "I don't know anything about women.. so I don't care. But I personally think it's wrong" thing? Or is it a "That sort of decision cannot be left to the woman alone without any say" thing? Or something else entirely?
    I believe that I have already addressed this above. If a single woman conceives, then she should be granted the permission to provide the ultimate decision.

    -Should a woman be able to have an abortion funded if it WILL severely endanger her life?
    Yes.

    -Should a woman raise a child that was conceived via incest and rape?
    That would be her decision to make. If the child was already born, then of course I would find it preferable that it remain with its biological mother. In terms of social health, this would be a far better option than the desertion of child. However, if the mother could not provide the adequate nurture that a child requires, then it would be better to locate a more suitable environment in which the child may be reared. Naturally, this would vary by individual circumstance.

    Regarding incest, the act itself produces harmful effects that should be eliminated; therefore, the fetus (or, depending upon the health, the baby) should be aborted through state action.

    -Most importantly.. Do you feel men should be allowed to vote on things like this without women being in the majority?
    Men constitute a significant segment of society and so deserve the ability to vote upon such issues. These issues impact more than the woman in question or women in general: they impact society. They affect not only the males (and females) in the immediate lives of women but also produce a net effect upon society and therefore influence men collectively along with future male generations.

    However, I do not quite understand this question. Do you care to elaborate?

    I'm not looking for right or wrong.. I just want the opinions of traditional men on how they view women handling their own bodies and lives in the area traditional men claim women should be firmly placed in. If our main responsibilities are traditional to you.. then children are our number one priority. So how much say should we have legally with this in mind?
    I find the "women can do whatever they want with their own bodies" argument to be childish and irresponsible. If it were parroted under any topic other than abortion, it would be recognized as such. In order for a society to function successfully, that society must be cohesive. If a society is founded upon alienation, then it is a contentious and feeble society. If men and women cannot rationally define social responsibility, then the future generations are doomed.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  3. #43
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    -How much say do you think women should have over their own bodies?
    Only in the situations where men don't want to deal with women, like their time of the month and tampons, et al.

    -Do you feel it is a "I don't know anything about women.. so I don't care. But I personally think it's wrong" thing? Or is it a "That sort of decision cannot be left to the woman alone without any say" thing? Or something else entirely?
    Any major decision is to be made by the father or husband of the woman, and in the absence of both the eldest brother or most senior male in her family. Women can't be trusted to make major decisions all willy-nilly. It would be chaos
    -Should a woman be able to have an abortion funded if it WILL severely endanger her life?
    It's to be funded by the man who ordinarily supports her and provides for her, since it's his responsibility to pay for her medical bills.
    -Should a woman raise a child that was conceived via incest and rape?
    It's a woman's job to raise children, so if she has the child, then yes. And if she doesn't have the child, then... well, she's a failure and a mutant who should be the convent devoting her life to God.

    -Most importantly.. Do you feel men should be allowed to vote on things like this without women being in the majority?
    Yes, of course, especially since women shouldn't be a "minority" in the voting anyways. Women shouldn't be voting, men want to get home from voting and have their fucking sandwiches ready!

    And anyways, why are you thinking about these things?

    Women should focus their attention on housework and not complicated tasks like "thinking". So go on, wash the dishes or something while we menfolk solve your baby problems.











    Disclaimer: the above post may or may not be an accurate representation of the poster's actual beliefs.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    None of those even comes close to providing conclusive evidence for the proposed behavioral differences between the sexes. All they've done is describe physical differences in brains; the link between those differences and (what happen to be conveniently ideological notions of) behavioral differences is not clear.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...boys-and-girls
    http://academic.udayton.edu/PeggyDes...l_sex_diff.pdf
    http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gend.../dp/0393068382 (This is a good one, I suggest you read it sometime.)
    What exactly would constitute "conclusive evidence" for you? Your own links are nothing more than caveats that any worthy scientist understands quite well, and one of them was even to a book full of deconstructionist and postmodern feminist tripe. ("Neurosexism." Hah!)

    Yes, you have done quite well and proved (or is it disproved?) much.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  5. #45
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    The topic is the traditional male perspective on abortion / abortion rights... not inherent gender differences.

    Please stick to topic, thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    What exactly would constitute "conclusive evidence" for you? Your own links are nothing more than caveats that any worthy scientist understands quite well, and one of them was even to a book full of deconstructionist and postmodern feminist tripe. ("Neurosexism." Hah!)

    Yes, you have done quite well and proved (or is it disproved?) much.
    So many words, so little substance. Merely sneering at a genre of literature on the subject does not suffice as an argument. Your ignorance is palpable.

    Sorry, Jennifer. This will be my last post on the subject. Chastise me as you will.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #47
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Except, as far as I know, there's nothing innate about black people than lends them to Bass playing. Biology and chemistry (hormones) do lend women into a more "nurturing" role.
    I dunno, my step kids mom is about as nurturing as wallpaper and I wouldn't call my own mother nurturing either. But on the whole this is usually true. It doesn't mean men are biologically and chemically unable to nurture, which is what it sounds like you're saying, even if you aren't.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So many words, so little substance. Merely sneering at a genre of literature on the subject does not suffice as an argument. Your ignorance is palpable.

    Sorry, Jennifer. This will be my last post on the subject. Chastise me as you will.
    I did not attempt to construct a proper argument. My response was merely to draw attention to the lack of your own.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  9. #49
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I dunno, my step kids mom is about as nurturing as wallpaper and I wouldn't call my own mother nurturing either. But on the whole this is usually true. It doesn't mean men are biologically and chemically unable to nurture, which is what it sounds like you're saying, even if you aren't.
    Group averages do not indicate that every individual within a particular group must display characteristics that describe the group average. I think that it would be highly credulous to believe that traditional gender roles have in no way been shaped by biological differences between sexes.

    Also, if you are going to make comparisons between individuals from different groups, then you must isolate the variables. You cannot simply compare any male and female, unless you are selecting from a random distribution. If not, then you must control factors. It would be more appropriate to compare an INTJ male to an INTJ female than an INTJ male to an ESFP female; this would allow for a more salient understanding of sexual differences.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  10. #50
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    I think that it would be highly credulous to believe that traditional gender roles have in no way been shaped by biological differences between sexes.
    I didn't say it wasn't. I said on the whole I believe they are shaped by chemical and biological differences and that women fall into the more nurturing role because of that. If you want to compare by type - my ENFJ husband can almost be a breast on the nurturing scale at times. I am probably more mothering and more nurturing than people would believe in INTJ can be. I've been doing it for a couple decades so maybe it's simply a level of proficiency.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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