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  1. #11
    Oberon
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    Yeah, we're all goddamn evil that way. It's a conspiracy.

  2. #12
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    I don't know if evil is the word, because some supporters of the patriarchy are kind and think they're well meaning.

    But they don't realize the damage they do and how they're just trying to maintain power in society for straight white men rather than allowing equality.

  3. #13

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    I'll never understand who people are content with over simplifying topics.

  4. #14
    Oberon
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    Us bastards. Who knew?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I don't know if evil is the word, because some supporters of the patriarchy are kind and think they're well meaning.

    But they don't realize the damage they do and how they're just trying to maintain power in society for straight white men rather than allowing equality.
    Yeah, there's a lot of female support for that idea too.

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile The Institution

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    some supporters of the patriarchy are kind and think they're well meaning.
    Yes, just as some supporters of the patriarchy are kind and well meaning, so some slave owners were kind and well meaning.

    The problem lies not with the individual but with the institution.

    And so we abolished the institution of slavery in 1833 in the House of Commons.

    In liberal democracies we started to dismantle the institution of patriarchy in the early part of the 20th Century when women gained the franchise for the first time in history in Australia and New Zealand.

    However we must face the fact that Sharia Law enshrines the institution of patriarchy in the very weft and warp of society.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Eh.. Knowing a few "traditionalist men" and talking to them about this topic, I'm going to add in a few things here. Feel free to ignore this if you think I'm derailing =D

    I don't like to, or agree with, slapping labels on people for one point of view. There are traditional people that both agree and disagree with abortion, just like non-traditional people.. and cutting it down even further to men vs. women is kinda strange to me. FTR, I will say that most of my life I considered myself to be pro-choice. I seemed to view pro-choice as a neutral stance. I don't think it is now, and I also have ZERO opinion on the abortion topic. When one says they are "pro-choice" they are saying that a fully developed humans personal rights outweigh that of a less developed person, or a clump of cells, however you want to view it. I also don't understand the bumperstickers I see everyday "Don't agree with abortion? Don't get one!" Does that apply to other issues as well? "Don't agree with slaves? Don't own one!" No, that doesnt seem to work. Or the moral issue. "Don't push your morals on me!" But it goes both ways, doesnt it? Once could fire right back, "don't push your pro-choice, fetus killing views on me!"

    Pro-lifers (or those traditionalist men if thats what you want to call them) typically have the following view

    1) Since life begins at conception, abortion is akin to murder as it is the act of taking human life. Abortion is in direct defiance of the commonly accepted idea of the sanctity of human life.
    Human life does infact exist at conception, for what is it if its not human? Is it a fish? No, it is indeed "human." So the argument then turns into a 'when is a human a person' question. If one is not a person until its naturally born, what can we say about ce-sections? If it is not a person until it's 9months, what about babies born at 23 weeks? If it is not a human until it can survive on its own, what about humans walking around with pace-makers or oxygen? Are they not human? If it is not a person without conscious awareness, what about people in comas? People with minimal brain activity?

    2) No civilized society permits one human to intentionally harm or take the life of another human without punishment, and abortion is no different.
    True, leads back to when is a human a person question.

    3) Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.
    Goes back to the person question. If something is deemed a person, killing it is wrong. No other argument needs to be made. BUt if is not a person, then why force someone to go through the experience of pregnancy and adoption?

    4) An abortion can result in medical complications later in life; the risk of ectopic pregnancies doubles, and the chance of a miscarriage and pelvic inflammatory disease also increases.
    I've seen medical studies state the opposite. Either way, I do not feel like this is a valid argument. So what. Its a persons choice. When I ride a roller coaster I know there is a chance I might snap my neck back and have problems forever. I accept the risk.

    5) In the instance of rape and incest, proper medical care can ensure that a woman will not get pregnant. Abortion punishes the unborn child who committed no crime; instead, it is the perpetrator who should be punished
    This is a somewhat valid argument. If a fetus is deemed a person, I see no reason to kill it for circumstances out of its control. Are we defined by our creational circumstnaces? No. Is killing a person a worse offense than rape? Probably.

    6) Abortion should not be used as another form of contraception.
    I think both sides agree with this.

    7) For women who demand complete control of their body, control should include preventing the risk of unwanted pregnancy through the responsible use of contraception or, if that is not possible, through abstinence.
    Something to be said for this. If you believe you should have complete control over your own body, without anyone else telling you what to do with it, then you must accept complete responsibility with what that body does, yes?

    8) Many Americans who pay taxes are opposed to abortion, therefore it's morally wrong to use tax dollars to fund abortion
    I understand why they might feel this way. I feel the same about my tax dollars being used for what I perceive to be unnecessary wars and global terrorism. Pisses me right off. One must look at the bigger picture though, the framework of society.

    9) Those who choose abortions are often minors or young women with insufficient life experience to understand fully what they are doing. Many have lifelong regrets afterwards.
    Dam skippy. I was a complete tit-head at 16. Did quite a few things that I'm still dealing with the consequences of. But this leads back to a 'let me tell you whats good for you' ideal, and then where to you draw the line... when does eating too many brownies and watching American Idol become bad for me as well.

    10) Abortion frequently causes intense psychological pain and stress.
    One could argue that parenthood causes intense psychological pain and stress. Poor argument (imo), as one chooses how they will respond to a circumstance. Ties in with the rape or incest creation.

    Anyhow, I think many of these are the arguments that back pro-life. I repeat that I do not have any real opinion on this, as I do not feel confident in deciding when a human becomes a person.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of female support for that idea too.
    There's a lot of female support for straight white men being in power?

    I don't know whether to laugh or take you seriously.

    I'm sure we cannot have a proper democracy if one group's needs are held above everyone else's.

    That's not a true democracy, and in this case, I must agree with Victor's post.

    Good 'ol Victor.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    There's a lot of female support for straight white men being in power?

    I don't know whether to laugh or take you seriously.

    I'm sure we cannot have a proper democracy if one group's needs are held above everyone else's.

    That's not a true democracy, and in this case, I must agree with Victor's post.

    Good 'ol Victor.
    Women can be just as complicit in the reproduction of patriarchal ideology as men, though.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Women can be just as complicit in the reproduction of patriarchal ideology as men, though.
    Of course they can. It's called Stockholm Syndrome. But Lark's response seemed as if he was saying "see? this is the natural way! for straight white men to have POWER!!!"

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