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  1. #81
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Oh goodness. I suppose I should post my reply to elfboy's comment here too. But I basically said "Men are just as nurturing as women. Kthnx."
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  2. #82
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Learning to read and write is male now? Or not cooking? Or not wanting to be bothered with caring for children?

    Enjoy your absurd strawman argument.
    Actually, you put yourself these activities as alternatives activities for women. But yeah, they are not. Men and women both can be into music, but even here, and especially here, gender differences are ultimately marked. Show me the female equivalent of Elvis Presley. Show me the male equivalent of Britney Spears.

    But I suppose you will say to me that when girls screamed histerically and had their pussy wetted watching him moving his legs, it was not natural but because they are forced by a social construct. Probably.

    It is also true for litterature. Both men and women can write with talents of course, but show me the female equivalent of Charles Bukowski, show me the male equivalent of Marguerite Duras.
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  3. #83
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    IWe're saying people should not be punished for acting like themselves.
    People are not punished for acting like themselves. But the mores they act like temselves, the more gender differences tend to be marked.

    We're saying society takes smaller differences, and has emphasized on them SO much for SO long that now people are expected to act certain ways, and to feel shame when they fall short of those social pressures.
    I'm quite tired by all theses complaining about "society force us to act like this" like if there was cops ready to beat you if you did'nt act like a traditional woman. Do you realise how ludicrous it is?

    I don't think that's right. I think men are useful whether they're aggressive or not. I think women are useful whether they're nurturing or not.
    Again, I've never sayd that women are useless if they are not nurturing. But that they tend more than men to be nurturing. It is quite ironic that whe need that kind of debate on that forum while we use MBTI daily and know that women tend strongly to be more F than men, and so tend naturally to be more sensitive, more based on affect, more nurturing and more prone to compassion than reflection, logic and reason.



    It doesn't happen naturally, however. No one lets it happen naturally.
    Again, show me the cops.



    Bill Gates would die a horrible death at the hands of a bear if he had to act like the natural 'manly caveman man' that the OP was talking about. He is aggressive--But not in a NATURAL way. He doesn't get into bar fights, or protect women vehemothly. He is intellectually aggressive. Through business, and studying, and innovation he has created something awesome. This is not due to his gender. It is due to his intellect. In the raw, natural world, he may not be of much use.. but we're not all living in that world anymore. And thus, he's one of the most useful inventors of our time. Donald Trump, one of the examples given, is most certainly not the normal average Joe either. Is his aggressively built estate from testosterone alone? I don't think so for a moment.
    Yes Bill Gates is intellectually masculine, and he is powerful because he was inventive and worked hard to be a mogul. To not fit with the "musclar macho cro-magnon" stereotype does'nt mean anything. Because power in modern societies is rather get with inteligence, inventivity and assertivity than on physical force.


    So if a woman happens to be pretty, she can get everywhere in the world?
    No because she is confonted to competition with other girls. And this is why many women have low self-esteem. That competition happens naturally and medias are just vectors of that competion, a natural phenomenon wich happens naturally in countries where press freedom is respected. It is sexual, natural and animal, not a social construct. For the rest, having an high or a low self-esteem is fundamentally and ultimately a personal decision. That has nothing to do with an eventual "social construct".

    Gender studies and feminist movements are social construct.

    That is how it is set up now.. I'm saying it shouldn't come down to how pretty we are. The whole point of talking about the jobs Marm listed earlier was to say that women are useful in SO many other ways than "seduction"
    I hav'nt said that women are useless outside of seduction, but that seduction is their power. And that they don't need to be agressive and to get power to be seducive.


    that it cheapens us as a whole to narrow it down to that. On average, most women are not on par with the looks of someone who could get their way with their seduction alone.
    Of course, no. But they usually feel that if it was the case, their life would be easyer.

    We're not all Jessica Rabbits. (I won't even get into the whole 'purity' issue and constant barage of insults if a woman is comfortable with her sexuality.. it's a whole thread somewhere.)
    I don't give a damn about "purity" either.

    And we do need that. Do you think I'd be rude, and aggressive, if I didn't have to be? If I had people who DIDN'T try to assume I was stupid, or take advantage of my kindness and mistake my passive traits as weakness.. I wouldn't need to be nearly as forthright as I am. But alas, I don't get that sort of respect much of the time. Many don't. You don't want women to act aggressive? Stop treating us like we didn't grow up right next to you.
    As far as I know, women feel more confortable when they have a man to be agressive for them, so they less have to be agressive themselves.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  4. #84
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I'm quite tired by all theses complaining about "society force us to act like this" like if there was cops ready to beat you if you did'nt act like a traditional woman. Do you realise how ludicrous it is?
    Not cops, it starts with parents treating children different because of sex then kids take over the enforcement role, classmates generally. And yes it is ludicrous that society places expectations on people to act a certain way rather than accepting them to simply act in accordance to who they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Again, I've never sayd that women are useless if they are not nurturing. But that they tend more than men to be nurturing. It is quite ironic that whe need that kind of debate on that forum while we use MBTI daily and know that women tend strongly to be more F than men, and so tend naturally to be more sensitive, more based on affect, more nurturing and more prone to compassion than reflection, logic and reason.
    Women are estimated at 75% Feeling, men approx 50%. If the split for men is closer to 50/50 T/F why are men taught to withhold emotion and remain stoic? And if you can understand that expectation isn't based on how the vast majority of men inherently act then you'll get closer to understanding that the same thing happens with women.


    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    As far as I know, women feel more confortable when they have a man to be agressive for them, so they less have to be agressive themselves.
    I question what you think you know.

  5. #85
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    How vapid. Now that the niceties are over, did you have something constructive to add?
    I apologize for being rude Orangey.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  6. #86
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was too, and even more so after reading it again.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  7. #87
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Gender != biological sex.
    If gender != biological sex, then it must = social construct.
    Therefore, gender = social construct.

    The basic idea is really simple.
    Gender is determined at the cellular level. Even taking hormones will not change that. You are born one or the other.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  8. #88
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Gender is determined at the cellular level. Even taking hormones will not change that. You are born one or the other.
    Ehhh... Only the relatively few sexual cells are really gendered like that. Now, if you were a bird, or a reptile, or some sort of arthropod, then each one of your cells really would have a gender to them, which is why this happens: Gynandromorph

    But for human beings hormones are in fact the main thing that will create your gender distinction.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #89
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    People are not punished for acting like themselves. But the mores they act like temselves, the more gender differences tend to be marked.
    We'll just have to disagree on this point.. The fact that you mention is exactly what we're fighting about. The entire point of the discussion is this: You say the more people act like themselves, the more we notice differences in gender. We're saying, that the more people act like society, they easier they have it, so of course they conform.. even when many people don't want to.. The signs are there everyday. Someone in this very thread complained about homosexual men 'acting feminine and flamboyant'. Why? There is nothing inherently negative about a man acting like this.. but it is noticed because he is acting, shock, like a woman. There are women that are insulted all the time for having traits and thought processes that typical men in society do. When I say punished, I do not mean some one organization is policing everyone up. There is no "Oh, little jonny, you wanna play with dolls? Go sit in the corner!!".. It is the fathers, scared of their sons wanting to play with barbies, that TELL them what their sons should like. "You don't wanna play with dolls like your sister, jonny!! You wanna play with the truck!!" From the very beginning and on, we try to shape our boys and girls to fit certain norms and standards.. it is easier on them, socially, if they do, so we try to mold them.. and find they have a hard time when they're outside that circle for one reason or another. I am saying that the organization is society itself.

    I'm quite tired by all theses complaining about "society force us to act like this" like if there was cops ready to beat you if you did'nt act like a traditional woman. Do you realise how ludicrous it is?
    I'm sure white people at one point in time complained about they're so sick of black people complaining that 'separate but equal' doesn't work. Do you realize how crazy it sounds to me, having witnessed it countless times all over the place, for someone to try and tell me what does or does not exist? Just because it hasn't happened to you does not mean others don't struggle with it.. Society forcing things down the throats of its men and women is certainly a fact of life. While some of these things are good, we're arguing many of them are not in the long run even if they are done with decent intentions.. You happen to fall into a group where this doesn't bother you, but that doesn't invalidate the stance we're taking.

    Again, I've never sayd that women are useless if they are not nurturing. But that they tend more than men to be nurturing. It is quite ironic that whe need that kind of debate on that forum while we use MBTI daily and know that women tend strongly to be more F than men, and so tend naturally to be more sensitive, more based on affect, more nurturing and more prone to compassion than reflection, logic and reason.
    I don't quite understand your language.. You say women shouldn't crave power because it isn't necessary when we can seduce people, as if we are all in one category.. and then you use words like "tend to be more F".. meaning you acknowledge there are women born outside of the norm all the time, implying you think there are many categories.. We're saying that the social norms become the standard, and that is where it gets messy. It is okay for a majority of women to be sensitive.. but the problem is, the women who are not (the minority, w/e you want to call it) get egged on because we're not in the majority.

    Yes Bill Gates is intellectually masculine, and he is powerful because he was inventive and worked hard to be a mogul. The fact is that men are more oriented to power toward achievements than women. To not fit with the "musclar macho cro-magnon" stereotype does'nt mean anything. Because power in modern societies is rather get with inteligence, inventivity and assertivity than on physical force.BTW, it would allow women to equal men in the realm of buisness, but they don' equal. How many women are on the top 100 of billionaires?
    To be fair, I said humans express their aggression in different ways, and used Donald Trump, an obviously aggressive male who isn't aggressive in the 'nature-instinct survival' way. His aggression is more intellectual in comparison to the cavemen the OP talked about. (sigh).. Not to mention, the entire point of this argument in the thread is that social constructs can be severely negative because of the awful gaps they cause. You brought to a great example of that--women in the work force. How long have women been allowed to work in industries where they are capable of making that sort of money in comparison to men? (hint: Many of the men were born in the 30's - 50's in the list of 2011 top billionaires) Also, couple that with how long have women been paid equally in wages to men? (hint: this still does not happen all the time present day.. so even when women did get started, they weren't paid the same.) Even with this severe gap, there are 4 confirmed in the top 40.. So obviously we do have a shit ton of super motivated women.. I think that speaks volumes on how many women are or are not 'power-driven.' We do not equal, but not because we have a vagina.

    It is sexual, natural and animal, not a social construct. For the rest, having an high or a low self-esteem is fundamentally and ultimately a personal decision. That has nothing to do with an eventual "social construct".
    Just to remind you, a few posts ago you said women should seek power through seduction tactics alone. That this was the 'best' way for us to attain any sort of power. You told me that the BEST way for me to be successful is to utilize my sexuality. Be sure you tell your (perhaps future) daughters and nieces that message as well.

    I hav'nt said that women are useless outside of seduction, but that seduction is their power. And that they don't need to be agressive and to get power to be seducive.
    I'll seduce my next boss and tell you how it goes. If you see me on the Billionaire list next year, I'll concede and give you half of the money for your awesome advice. Also, again, be sure to tell any future little girls in your life that good advice. I'll try to spread the word as well.

    Of course, no. But they usually feel that if it was the case, their life would be easyer
    I think most women feel that way because there is everything, everywhere telling them that. People don't make up a 'perfect body type' out of thin air. They learn it. (and it is never theirs for some reason.)

    I don't give a damn about "purity" either.
    Will you go so far as to say you represent the majority of men when you say that? Because I have an entire company of males that have no problem thinking a woman who has slept with more than one person they know a 'whore', and they aren't outside of the normal male population at all. It's surprisingly normal to call a girl that isn't tied down to just one man a 'panty-dropper', or whatever it is the cool kids say these days.

    As far as I know, women feel more confortable when they have a man to be agressive for them, so they less have to be agressive themselves.
    This is true, many women do feel this way. Again.. Over and over. My point is.. is that when a majority of women feel this way, and men come across a woman that is outside of this norm, they go ballistic. They want the woman to act like the rest of the women. That is a social construct that guides that mentality. Don't believe me? Ask how many guys think it is okay for a woman to jump into a fight with them who WANTS to jump into the fight and help them.
    There are a majority of women who would rather not do such a thing.. but when the minority of them DO want to help their friends, is what I mean, so don't feed me another post of " >:\ But women don't like to fight!"
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  10. #90
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    My ovaries make me great at doing housework.

    (This is in response to the OP, god knows what madness has occurred in the last 9 pages)
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