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  1. #41
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Gender is not a social construct, it's innate.

    Gender roles and the expectations placed on people because of their sex are social constructs.

  2. #42
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Gender is not a social construct, it's innate.

    Gender roles and the expectations placed on people because of their sex are social constructs.
    Yes, social expectations are social constructs. But theses expectations are a legacy from a natural and spontaneous phenomenon - genders - and it still works, even if it is alterated by modernity, civilisation, aristocracy, femininsm, gender studies, or others socials constructs. For the best and the worst.
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  3. #43
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Gender is not a social construct, it's innate.

    Gender roles and the expectations placed on people because of their sex are social constructs.
    Nice. No need to go beyond the concise truth.

  4. #44
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    I don't see how anyone can deny this. Thoughts?
    You haven't evolved fingers for typing on a keyboard.

    Hypothesis 1 - Stop typing you rebel.
    Hypothesis 2 - Nature is merely the beginning.

    As for being social constructs, yes they are. They are based on biological differences but try explaining make-up when it's the men who commonly have to do the hard work and the women are the prize. Is this because we changed pheromones to BO in order to sell deodorant? Who knows.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #45
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I actually agree with some of what Perch is saying.
    1) it's not women's duty to have children and stay at home being useless, BUT if they do decide to have children, the the first responsibility of any mother is to take care of her children. no mother should put the needs of her career before her children. if someone proposed a law restricting women with children under 10 from joining the military, I would almost support it (for the sake of the child of course, not for the sake of enforcing social expections. I would not support this law because legal enforcement of social expectations would be the resulting trend)
    It is not the WOMAN'S responsibility to care for the child. It is the PARENTS responsibility. How narrowminded must one be to talk this way? Women usually get stuck with the task, and admittably most do not mind that.. but both parents have a responsibility to the child of EQUAL value. "almost" supporting an arbitrary law like this completely neglects the father's responsibility. "Preventing a woman from leaving to her job for the sake of the child"? It's narrow minded bullshit.

    The military allows for that child to have health care, dental care, money to live on and be clothed with, etc. Parents give to their children in all sorts of ways. Just because she's not at home does NOT mean she is neglecting her child. Making that assumption is... just.. cruel.

    2) women and men are biologically different on a number of levels
    The point of this discussion is whether those differences biologically have any influence on what men and women are and are capable of.. To which, many are replying No. That this is all socially nurtured, not something nature intended necessarily.

    3) if you look at the training records of men and women, men tend to be able to lift more and gain more weight on average
    Testosterone is to thank for that, for sure.. But really, how much weight needs to be lifted now a days? I bench press 100lbs.. not even my own body weight's worth. And yet, I've worked construction, cleared land, built buildings, manned guns bigger than I am tall with accuracy, and done my job just as well as the big guy next to me. What is the point of this? How much weight do you think needs to be lifted in one go anymore?? We're smart, with a billion tools to help us.. We dont NEED the strength. Hence all the men that have killer keyboard-forearms and computer tans.

    4) men have higher testerone levels which leads to higher overall aggression, muscle gain and ambition than women (on average)
    Generally, aggression of humans in general is still there, just expressed differently, as I said before. Also, I don't see how 'aggression' is very useful now-a-days. I think I'm more aggressive than the average female I come across, and usually.. 80% of the time, it just ends up with me needing to bite my tongue lest I get myself in a heap of trouble.

    5) the idea that a woman can slap a man but a man can't hit a woman under any circumstances is completely ludacris (I was severely sexually harassed by a girl in 9th grade and I kicked her ass. got her suspended too hehehe)
    I believe it is too, except socially speaking this is the norm. It is a "social construct". The entire point of this discussion. We're making the point that gender should not equal what happens or doesn't happen on its own merit. NO ONE should hit another person without expecting the consequences of that action. No one. But the fact women get away with this more frequently is only because men and women have created this 'rule' socially allowing it.

    6) 90% of women are attracted to power, money, muscular physique, passion and dominance; 90% men are attracted to youth, child bearing hips, large breasts and innocent, feminine personalities. there is nothing wrong with this, it doesn't make women inferior or men perverts, that's just biology.
    I think the fact that 90% of men and women are not married to those type of people proves otherwise. People are naturally attracted to those things... men can be attracted to power (just not power in the woman necessarily..) and women can be attracted to child-bearing properties (i.e. the money and power).. This is instinct. But intelligence says otherwise. "Power and physique usually lead to assholes" is learned, and we steer away towards people that actually might make us happy. It is not just biology. It goes far beyond biology. This is mentalities, and education.

    7) women who think they need to act like men to be "feminist" are the real sexists. if they were secure with themselves, they would see that being feminine and doing what is natural for them can get them respect.
    And do you think women are not encouraged to act like men? Women are repeatedly rewarded (or punished, depending on the setting. Philosophy being a great example of this) for acting like men. Socially speaking, depending on where women are social pressures encourage them to 'act' one way or another. Feminists do not 'act like men'.. There ARE extreme feminazis out there, but overall feminists are just normal people. It is sexist to think just because I happen to act 'manly', that I must be sexist because I MUST be trying to act 'like a man' instead of like... say.. myself.

    8) of course, that being said, some women are naturally more masculine, but the natural behavior of a strong, more masculine women is not the same as a man's
    I beg to differ. I've lived most of my adult life in a male-dominated career.. Men do not act so different to women at all. Of this, I am convinced. Even if the more shallow things are different.

    9) similarly, not all men are highly masculine, but men shouldn't be made to feel ashamed of their masculinity, it just needs to be CHANNELED. dominant, powerful men are much more likely to get wealth and success than submissive, insecure men (look at Donald Trump for example)*also, the myth that all gay men are feminine and female-esque is ridiculous. while gay men are probably going to be more feminine overall, I am ashamed of the number of gay men who act like women to fit in
    Bill Gates is not a particularly powerful, domineering man. He's a nerdy dude that has, like, say, a bazillion dollars of worth just being reserved. Submissive, insecure PEOPLE are not going to be as successful. But it is not limited to men. Women have to be MORE aggressive many times just to try earning the same wages and pay. If anything, I argue that women need to be more aggressive than men to survive now-a-days.

    The gay society should not be ashamed of feminine-acting men, nor should anyone else. Again.. Why would someone be ashamed of acting like who they are? I know there is some social constructing in this aspect. But this is what the thread is about. Socially speaking, gay men are encouraged to act like one way or the other.. Just. Like. Everyone. Else.

    10) the current culture in america discourages both masculine and feminine behavior when it should be encouraging both.
    If anything, it should continue to discourage these behaviors. It should only encourage people to act as they are. I don't want anyone else trying to 'encourage' me to wear a dress everyday. I don't want anyone else trying to push my nephews into 'acting' like gorillas.. when they should be free to act like themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    So what? everything you say about women here is related to their gender.
    For the record. Basket weavers, pottery makers, artisans, etc... These are all ALSO jobs men can and have had. You're assuming because those jobs are not "GO HUNT FOR GOOD NAO! FOOTBAAAWWWLL!!" that they are not manly tasks. Many artisans, artists, creators and inventors were men as well.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    This was probably the stupid thing I've ever heard. Gender isn't just a "social construct". In the entire animal kingdom, and with mammals in particular, women stay at home and raise children while men go out and hunt. This is the dynamic that is the most natural, not just for animals, but for humans as well.

    I'm not saying women can't have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers and childrearers.

    Women and men produce different hormones; for women, the hormones increase compassion, and for men, they increase aggression. This is fitting given their natural roles.

    I don't see how anyone can deny this. Thoughts?
    Well, I agree with the roles related to hormones. I don't completely disagree with natural gender roles/ don't think it's a product of society.Women are more likely to have the nurturing, child rearing quality. I also think it may be hard on some men who are highly "manly" and want to be breadwinners in the world and then their women want to do the same, leaving the children behind. Those men may say, "it is natural" for the women to be the ones at home raising the children. But I don't think this is necessarily true in every case. I personally find stay at home mom to a very unnatural way of living. For women who would be very unhappy staying at home all day watching kids, I don't think that it should be considered a "duty". If a man expects the women to carry through with those duties, he needs to find one who definitely agrees. I would feel abused and repressed with those kinds of expectations. It's something a couple needs to work out before they have kids.
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  7. #47
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    For the record. Basket weavers, pottery makers, artisans, etc... These are all ALSO jobs men can and have had. You're assuming because those jobs are not "GO HUNT FOR GOOD NAO! FOOTBAAAWWWLL!!" that they are not manly tasks. Many artisans, artists, creators and inventors were men as well.
    Actually, Marmie Dearest herself wrote that theses jobs were attributed to women. I don't see the point where all theses "women can do it" "men can do it" etc. OF COURSE they can, but that does'nt mean genders don't exist. Genders exist as global norms and natural leanings based on the sex, not as rigid structures and categories.

    Of course, we can, maybe, envisage that it is reversible, and we can wish every women act like men and every men act like women, or even that none of these act either like men and women and that human being become a unisex species. But it would'nt happen naturally and we would need a vast bureaucracy, police, educations programs, etc, to lead men and women to this. A social construct.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  8. #48
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    Biologically, gender is a physical difference, marked by the presence of male or female DNA and the sex organs attributed to it.

    Sociologically, gender is an artifical construct based upon biological gender, determining how each gender should act in society.

    Yet we as human beings are not tied down to what our biological make up is; although females and males in the animal kingdon act a certain way within the wild, huamn beings are free from such wretched instincts. Thus gender roles are more or less enforced by the modern day social norm. However if there isn't a tight restriction on gender roles, then people may be free to embrace many more things that were previously exclusive to only the other gender. I for one am not a typical manly guy, I like cute things like kitties, puppies and pokemon, I enjoy calm walks in tranquil areas, I use anime girls as my avatar, and I trust my feelings. Hell, most people think I'm female online. Thus my male biology doesnot dictate my method of though, thus the male persona that I am expected to take on is nothing more than a construct of our complex society.

  9. #49
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Gender are not something which tell us what we should do, but what happens naturally.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Gender are not something which tell us what we should do, but what happens naturally.
    Naturally doesn't mean shit. By nature's intent, I should be aggresive, dominating, powerful, ambitious, and competitive. I'm not though; despite being born male I'm sincere, kind, quiet, thoughtful, and peaceful. Which means that biological gender doesn't influence psychological gender; that aspect of gender is more likely infleunced by society.

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