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  1. #111
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It was simply a joke. Not an attack. I see you are very susceptible.

    It would be very hard anyway, since you manifestely don't have any argument, as expected.
    I love politically taboo humor
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  2. #112
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    1: where is the social teaching? If it was so obvious, you should be able to give concrete examples.
    Read some Althusser. Ideological state apparatuses (ISA.) For example, my parents may be the most open-minded people in the world (family is one ISA), but when I go to school (another ISA) I learn that it's not okay to have an aggressive attitude as a female. I "learn" this by constant reinforcement of the message; peers make-fun of my behavior, I am ostracized, my teachers find me a nuisance and constantly tell me to be a "good girl," etc., Then I go to church (another ISA) and notice that all of the women in the Bible's stories are less important than the men; that evil Eve was the one who tempted Adam; that men are higher on the holy hierarchy than women. Then I watch films (another ISA) and notice that, except in rare, fantastical instances, females are only ever given the role of the romantic interest. Their action-taking capabilities as portrayed to me are limited, and their self-worth is always dependent upon their relationship to a man. Or if a woman is portrayed as having a public career, she must inevitably choose between her private life (happiness) and career, and if she chooses the latter, she is most likely going to die/spiral-out in the film (e.g., Black Swan. Zizek thinks so, too.) All of these things, coming from seemingly disparate sources, all paint a pretty consistent picture that can't be ignored.

    Even if I personally reject all of these things with my conscious mind, it's useless because I've already been given the message. Now everything that I do will either be conforming to that message or in reaction to it. I have been hailed into ideology against my will.
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  3. #113
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Read some Althusser. Ideological state apparatuses (ISA.) For example, my parents may be the most open-minded people in the world (family is one ISA), but when I go to school (another ISA) I learn that it's not okay to have an aggressive attitude as a female. I "learn" this by constant reinforcement of the message; peers make-fun of my behavior, I am ostracized, my teachers find me a nuisance and constantly tell me to be a "good girl," etc., Then I go to church (another ISA) and notice that all of the women in the Bible's stories are less important than the men; that evil Eve was the one who tempted Adam; that men are higher on the holy hierarchy than women. Then I watch films (another ISA) and notice that, except in rare, fantastical instances, females are only ever given the role of the romantic interest. Their action-taking capabilities as portrayed to me are limited, and their self-worth is always dependent upon their relationship to a man. Or if a woman is portrayed as having a public career, she must inevitably choose between her private life (happiness) and career, and if she chooses the latter, she is most likely going to die/spiral-out in the film (e.g., Black Swan. Zizek thinks so, too.) All of these things, coming from seemingly disparate sources, all paint a pretty consistent picture that can't be ignored.

    Even if I personally reject all of these things with my conscious mind, it's useless because I've already been given the message. Now everything that I do will either be conforming to that message or in reaction to it. I have been hailed into ideology against my will.
    Good post. I marked one of the most overlooked realities in red.

    I think this happens for other things besides gender. Like it or not, we automatically are assigned a social framework the moment we are born and we become imprinted with it. I think we can learn how to step out of it to some degree, by exploring other frames and expanding our knowledge and context... but not ever completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It was simply a joke. Not an attack. I see you are very susceptible.
    Since you're dismissing her criticism, I'm going to intervene for a moment and recommend you back off from comments like that, since they are not far from what we define as trolling behavior and can be considered such if they accumulate. The "period" comment (even before her response) brought you onto modbox radar... which is not where you want to be.
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  4. #114
    Senior Member SRT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    PS: that being said, women in america are currently not suffering from societal opression at all. if anything, men are. aggressive tendencies, dominance, passion and desire for powerful should be encouraged and properly channeled, not punished like they are in modern american society. faith, hope and charity are for the weak, the poor and the naive. confidence, charisma, passion, lust for power (in it's less excessive forms) and attitude are superior because they incline individuals to be productive and successful, and these are all masculine qualities. therefore, anyone who doesn't possess at least some masculine qualities is a pathetic looser who doesn't deserve my respect.
    Why are these masculine qualities? Why do we even need to associate traits with gender in the first place?

  5. #115
    ♪♫♪♫♪♫ luminous beam's Avatar
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    I'm just going to put my two cents in and say that gender in itself is both a combination of a social construct, in terms of "gender roles" and of a biological nature, in terms of us having penises and vaginae, more testosterone or more estrogen, XY vs XX. I also believe that it can have a psychological nature as well, what perhaps seems unnatural is capable when an individual chooses to escape such "roles" or expectations and also indulges in one's own curiosities and urges.


  6. #116
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT View Post
    Why are these masculine qualities? Why do we even need to associate traits with gender in the first place?
    masculine doesn't equate male, and feminine doesn't equate female. I know better than most as an NF males that all men are not programmed the same way, but we are the exception (NF males are maybe 9% of the population). hell, if you gave me a uterus, some breasts, larger buttocks and switched by vocal chords with a soprano, I would make a damn good mother. the true is though, men are more likely to exhibit masculine qualities and women are more likely to exhibit feminine qualities. you could argue these differences are subtle, but, with a population of billions of people over 160,000 years of human (homo sapiens sapiens) existance, this correlation is bound to be noticed.
    PS: I should also note that masculine-feminine is not one spectrum. how masculine and feminine one is are mutually exclusive and seperate spectrums (although I won't pretend I have a way of actually measuring these)
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  7. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Pro cyclists from Europe have no trouble wearing pink.
    They sound like girly men.

    Orangey's post above explains best why gender is a social construct. Gender expectations. It isn't like someone decided on it, I think it's easier to see things like that the more you vary your environment.

  8. #118
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    For almost all of us gender is encoded at the cellular level. We each have a trillion cells and each one tells us what we are. However we are also meaning creating animals, and so we give meaning to what our cells are telling us.

    And as all meaning is a construct of language and so a social construct, so gender is also a social construct.

    However all societies have rigid, enforced rules governing gender and sexuality. For instance, our society forbids child sex under the criminal law, but does not forbid adultery under our criminal law. Whereas Sharia Law permits child sex but forbids adultery.

  9. #119
    Senior Member SRT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    masculine doesn't equate male, and feminine doesn't equate female. I know better than most as an NF males that all men are not programmed the same way, but we are the exception (NF males are maybe 9% of the population). hell, if you gave me a uterus, some breasts, larger buttocks and switched by vocal chords with a soprano, I would make a damn good mother. the true is though, men are more likely to exhibit masculine qualities and women are more likely to exhibit feminine qualities. you could argue these differences are subtle, but, with a population of billions of people over 160,000 years of human (homo sapiens sapiens) existance, this correlation is bound to be noticed.
    PS: I should also note that masculine-feminine is not one spectrum. how masculine and feminine one is are mutually exclusive and seperate spectrums (although I won't pretend I have a way of actually measuring these)
    You didn't answer why those qualities you listed are masculine as opposed to feminine (or any other category), unless you're saying that they are masculine traits because men are more likely to portray them. In that case, you are equating masculine with behaving like a male. And since our behavior can be influenced and directed by outside sources, we can come to resemble whatever form we're pushed/pulled into.

    The reason gender is a social construct is because different people (societies) can group different behavioral traits together, so the meaning and classification of specific genders change culturally. Hence a "social construct".

  10. #120
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    hell, if you gave me a uterus, some breasts, larger buttocks and switched by vocal chords with a soprano, I would make a damn good mother.
    What about all those poor alto moms with flat chests and small butts out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    PS: I should also note that masculine-feminine is not one spectrum. how masculine and feminine one is are mutually exclusive and seperate spectrums (although I won't pretend I have a way of actually measuring these)
    They are? How do you know?
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