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  1. #91
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Not cops, it starts with parents treating children different because of sex then kids take over the enforcement role, classmates generally. And yes it is ludicrous that society places expectations on people to act a certain way rather than accepting them to simply act in accordance to who they are.
    1: parents treat their children diferently to some degree because it is their personal choice to do it. It is not a social construct, it is spontaneous, it is freedom. If you want that parents treat their children exactly the same way, you must dictate how they must raise their children, you must force them to applie your built program, and to do this, you need laws, cops, gender studies, social programs, etc: a social construct.

    2:expectations mean nothing since nothing force people to follow them, so, people follow theses expectatons spontaneously, following their most naturals gender tendencies.


    Women are estimated at 75% Feeling, men approx 50%. If the split for men is closer to 50/50 T/F why are men taught to withhold emotion and remain stoic? And if you can understand that expectation isn't based on how the vast majority of men inherently act then you'll get closer to understanding that the same thing happens with women.
    The only thing which is sayd to boys, when they are well educated, it that they can't fit well in the wirld when they are wimps; which is fundamentally true.
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  2. #92
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Someone in this very thread complained about homosexual men 'acting feminine and flamboyant'. Why? There is nothing inherently negative about a man acting like this.. but it is noticed because he is acting, shock, like a woman.
    Those tend to be the only gays that are noticed. Another entire subgroup of gays (called bears) are typically far more masculine in their appearance and presentation. And other gay people who just act... normal, entirely.

    It's interesting to explore why people have a visceral reaction to men acting overtly feminine and, in the type of gays you describe, almost histrionically, however.

    There are women that are insulted all the time for having traits and thought processes that typical men in society do. When I say punished, I do not mean some one organization is policing everyone up. There is no "Oh, little jonny, you wanna play with dolls? Go sit in the corner!!".. It is the fathers, scared of their sons wanting to play with barbies, that TELL them what their sons should like. "You don't wanna play with dolls like your sister, jonny!! You wanna play with the truck!!"
    Honestly, from what I've read, that's not totally true. It seems like the doll/truck thing does predate a lot of social programming. it's just that it's hard to tell, since we don't routinely treat babies like test subjects and do social experiments on them. At least, not like we used to do in the '50's.

    With my own two sons, it's kind of funny now that they are teens. One of them never has been "overtly masculine" nor overidentified as male, but he's definitely got a male straight identity and leans toward the "geek/nerd" male end of things. He never felt any real desire to play with dolls, he was more apt to play with guns and active games and balls and the like. The other had extreme gender-crossing behavior by age three without any encouragement in either direction (dress-up, dolls, etc.) and was very overt about it; he was into active games too, however, with balls and sports, for awhile; and now, years later, even though that behavior subsided years ago, he is figuring out his feelings of attraction as a teenager and seems to have resolved into patterns directed away from traditional male pasttimes. Again, none of this came through telling the kids what they could and couldn't do. They just gravitated toward their own natural interests, and it was extremely difficult to even try to modify any of those behaviors.

    Yes, social influence plays a role, and society can put a LOT of pressure on us and even frame how we view the world, but... this isn't just about social influence.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #93
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Your view is naive Speed, if you think gender expectations are not influenced by society. Why do you think little boys turn up their nose and say pink is a horrible colour cause it's a girls colour? You think there is an anti-pink button in their brains that makes that happen, or do you think that maybe, just maybe since the day they were born they were told pink is a girls colour and little boys shouldn't like girly things.

  4. #94
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    We'll just have to disagree on this point.. The fact that you mention is exactly what we're fighting about. The entire point of the discussion is this: You say the more people act like themselves, the more we notice differences in gender. We're saying, that the more people act like society, they easier they have it, so of course they conform..
    People conform because it is their personal choice to do this. Spontaneously, women involve with life feeling that life will be simpler with a husband fiable and who own more money than her, who can assume their need when she will have kids. Men spontaneously feel that they must have a good social situation to attract women, because of what has been previously said. So, there's not social construct, but just people who follows their animal nature and meet their personal needs.

    The signs are there everyday. Someone in this very thread complained about homosexual men 'acting feminine and flamboyant'. Why? There is nothing inherently negative about a man acting like this..
    That is only your personal value judgement about his and nothing more. Other than that, are women most often attracted with that kind of guy or more tough and viril? We both know the answer to that question.

    There are women that are insulted all the time for having traits and thought processes that typical men in society do.
    That's a fact of minority. A few people take the personal decision to do to this. This is not a social construct, and if some women choose personally to listen them, it is, again, their personal choice and their personal weakness, not a social construct.

    When I say punished, I do not mean some one organization is policing everyone up. There is no "Oh, little jonny, you wanna play with dolls? Go sit in the corner!!".. It is the fathers, scared of their sons wanting to play with barbies, that TELL them what their sons should like. "You don't wanna play with dolls like your sister, jonny!! You wanna play with the truck!!" From the very beginning and on, we try to shape our boys and girls to fit certain norms and standards.. it is easier on them, socially, if they do, so we try to mold them..
    Bolded part is so caricatural that you can't be taken seriously.

    Like I said, fathers just think it is is their responsability to make a true man from their children, so yes they triy to mold thier kids. We try also to mold childrens to be sure that they can be proper, not prone to be murderer, stealer, etc, "To mold" is not necessarly something wrong, kids need to be mold in order to fit well with society. And what we can notice, is that public schools -a true social construct- have problems with boys because they are sponteneously more noisy, brawling, stirred and rebelious than girls who are spontaneously more quiet, sage, serious, pacific and conformist, more ready to listen what the teacher says. I suppose parents tell to their son to be undisciplined? No. Actually schools ask to parents to be more authoritarian with their boys, and more and more, tell them to stuff them with pills whenever they are a little too much stirred.


    I am saying that the organization is society itself.
    There's no such thing like society.

    I don't quite understand your language.. You say women shouldn't crave power because it isn't necessary when we can seduce people,

    I say that women use seducuon to attract men's power while men don't use seducion to attract women's power. It is normal wor a woman to be attracted with an older man for his money and his power. It does'nt happen for a man. An ageing man can easily compensate with money and power, an ageing woman can't.






    I'll seduce my next boss and tell you how it goes. If you see me on the Billionaire list next year, I'll concede and give you half of the money for your awesome advice.

    Thak you.

    Also, again, be sure to tell any future little girls in your life that good advice.
    It is unecessary because they ever do that.






    Will you go so far as to say you represent the majority of men when you say that? Because I have an entire company of males that have no problem thinking a woman who has slept with more than one person they know a 'whore', and they aren't outside of the normal male population at all. It's surprisingly normal to call a girl that isn't tied down to just one man a 'panty-dropper', or whatever it is the cool kids say these days.
    I think most men are disgusted by women with a decadent sexuality. Normal. Most women seem to be disgusted by that as well, and by men with a decadent sexuality too.



    This is true, many women do feel this way. Again.. Over and over. My point is.. is that when a majority of women feel this way, and men come across a woman that is outside of this norm, they go ballistic.
    So what? My point is not that misogygny don't exist and that women should give up when thay have expecations and behaviors wich are outside the norm. I just contest that gender don't exist except as a social construct, there's gender norms, and to say the contrary is ideological.

    They want the woman to act like the rest of the women. That is a social construct that guides that mentality.
    No. It is their personal decison to think that.
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  5. #95
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Your view is naive Speed, if you think gender expectations are not influenced by society.

    Society is not a social construct. If you think there's a social construct overall who try to influence our actions, and that you call that "society", we can say that there's no such thing like this.


    Why do you think little boys turn up their nose and say pink is a horrible colour cause it's a girls colour? You think there is an anti-pink button in their brains that makes that happen, or do you think that maybe, just maybe since the day they were born they were told pink is a girls colour and little boys shouldn't like girly things.
    I think if you'd ask to theses boys if their parents told them "what is girly and what is not", they would answer "no". They just dislike pink because that disgust them. And you can't force people to be disgusted by something, so, it is natural.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  6. #96
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, social influence plays a role, and society can put a LOT of pressure on us and even frame how we view the world, but... this isn't just about social influence.
    Yes. Actually, the argument wich say that parents force their children to play with a specific sort of toys according to their gender is just wrong. It is extremely rare that parents do that.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  7. #97
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    So here's a question, Speed: how did men feel about pink 100 years ago, when pink was a boy color and blue was a girl color? WHy did that happen, do you think?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #98
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    People conform because it is their personal choice to do this. Spontaneously, women involve with life feeling that life will be simpler with a husband fiable and who own more money than her, who can assume their need when she will have kids. Men spontaneously feel that they must have a good social situation to attract women, because of what has been previously said. So, there's not social construct, but just people who follows their animal nature and meet their personal needs.
    Is it to meet an animal nature, or is it to fit in? What about differences in social class?

    That is only your personal value judgement about his and nothing more. Other than that, are women most often attracted with that kind of guy or more tough and viril? We both know the answer to that question.
    I don't. In fact, I've got no clue what most women are attracted to. It's just easier to be myself.

    That's a fact of minority. A few people take the personal decision to do to this. This is not a social construct, and if some women choose personally to listen them, it is, again, their personal choice and their personal weakness, not a social construct.
    What is volition in the first place? Do we know for certain that these people have a meaningful choice? If so, how?

    Bolded part is so caricatural that you can't be taken seriously.

    Like I said, fathers just think it is is their responsability to make a true man from their children, so yes they triy to mold thier kids. We try also to mold childrens to be sure that they can be proper, not prone to be murderer, stealer, etc, "To mold" is not necessarly something wrong, kids need to be mold in order to fit well with society. And what we can notice, is that public schools -a true social construct- have problems with boys because they are sponteneously more noisy, brawling, stirred and rebelious than girls who are spontaneously more quiet, sage, serious, pacific and conformist, more ready to listen what the teacher says. I suppose parents tell to their son to be undisciplined? No. Actually schools ask to parents to be more authoritarian with their boys, and more and more, tell them to stuff them with pills whenever they are a little too much stirred.
    I don't think anyone's going to seriously deny that young boys are wilder than young girls. However, I also don't think this has anything to do with gender roles as being discussed. It's just a biological trait like men being taller, stronger, and weighing more than most women. The problem is that we're uncertain what defines a "real man." It's heavily influenced by culture and social class, among other factors.

    There's no such thing like society.
    What's your argument?

    I say that women use seducuon to attract men's power while men don't use seducion to attract women's power. It is normal wor a woman to be attracted with an older man for his money and his power. It does'nt happen for a man. An ageing man can easily compensate with money and power, an ageing woman can't.
    That's not the only reason women are attracted to men. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius is a logical fallacy, after all.

    I think most men are disgusted by women with a decadent sexuality. Normal. Most women seem to be disgusted by that as well, and by men with a decadent sexuality too.
    I find that the disapproval usually only manifests if someone knows who both the sexual partners are, and dislikes one of them.

    So what? My point is not that misogygny don't exist and that women should give up when thay have expecations and behaviors wich are outside the norm. I just contest that gender don't exist except as a social construct, there's gender norms, and to say the contrary is ideological.
    So it's a definitional question, really - what is gender?

    No. It is their personal decison to think that.
    Depends on how much choice you think people really have.

  9. #99
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, from what I've read, that's not totally true. It seems like the doll/truck thing does predate a lot of social programming. it's just that it's hard to tell, since we don't routinely treat babies like test subjects and do social experiments on them. At least, not like we used to do in the '50's.

    Again, none of this came through telling the kids what they could and couldn't do. They just gravitated toward their own natural interests, and it was extremely difficult to even try to modify any of those behaviors.

    Yes, social influence plays a role, and society can put a LOT of pressure on us and even frame how we view the world, but... this isn't just about social influence.
    Your sons were lucky for growing up in a household that feels that way. I was not refering specifically to children's toys when saying that. I was illustrating. My point was to say "There is no organization.. it is society itself.. the individuals.. that push." There is no 'gender police'. But everyone feels the need to act like they are anyways. Telling people what should or should not be. Of course there are those that go against that no matter what.. but the pressure to conform is always there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I think if you'd ask to theses boys if their parents told them "what is girly and what is not", they would answer "no". They just dislike pink because that disgust them. And you can't force people to be disgusted by something, so, it is natural.
    You can, actually, teach children what should or should not disgust them. It happens all the time. Except replace 'pink' with other issues.. like racism. Children don't respond with "Yes, my mommy taught me that pink is gross!" they are taught that THEY think pink is gross.. so naturally, it is 'their' opinion. Mommy never comes into the explanation, even though it is far from natural.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So here's a question, Speed: how did men feel about pink 100 years ago, when pink was a boy color and blue was a girl color? WHy did that happen, do you think?
    Pro cyclists from Europe have no trouble wearing pink.

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