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  1. #101
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I still really don't understand where you are going with this. Could you explain further why someone's biology -- something having nothing to do with merit whatsoever -- is better in some way than merit and conscious choice and hard work? I'm still trying to understand this last sentence of yours, and it seems almost like two different thoughts put together by accident...
    Merit isnt in question, I'm talking about personal responsibility, social conscience and consequential thinking. I see the question of Eugenics in that order of things.

    Those things matter, whether by accident of birth you have good or bad genetic inheritance what you do then should include the factors I mentioned. Its perhaps confused because what Xander said about recognising the talents of children vs. the role of good parenting made me think about something else, although in a similar stead or vain.

  2. #102
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Your own post is BS?
    The statement that all you contribute can be boiled down to your genetic seed is BS yes. Otherwise go sire a child and then curl up, there is no reason to continue your existence past that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, I like the idea of eugenics because it involves thinking seriously about the past and future and your role in that and contribution, even if its "only" your genes, there's little in the way of anything asking people to perform as more than a consumer meeting their own needs and putting those needs ahead of everything else.
    Hmm I'd postulate that's more the role of history myself as to evaluate your impact before it's been made in such a complicated subject would be presumptuous to say the least.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #103
    Senior Member Rex's Avatar
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    Funny how much rage and crappy acusations people trew out here..

    I have something that is very unlikely to get carried over to my kids, but i still don`t think i should get kids.. for the kids sake.. but there is a second part.. my partner..
    But it does and did affect my life.. besides its plenty of good genes around..

    Anyway.. you could perhaps fix some averages for the population but due to natural radiation++, diseases and errors will occur no matter what.. The Real issue is actually about the ethics around abortion..

    If you think its ok to take abort, you should also think selective abortion is ok.. Your removing a problem or a potensial problem.. for you or the potensial baby.

    In Danmark they now can take test and check for downs syndrom.. the parents can then take abort..

    Thats a luxury we only have in the modern times.. jungle people just burry the downer etc. when its clear that the kid will be a burden for the group or family. add religious superstition etc.

    Society today (spesially USA) allready do select winners and losers.. mostly due to the lack of basic health care for everyone by law.

    Im all inn for free sterilisation for anyone who wants it.. Mainly due to the meth heads getting loads of babies. And i don`t think they all want these kids..

    Just thinking loud and stuff.
    Epic derailment:
    wierd memory work->Tamagochi->tetris->Starcraft2->thugs->Chess->german techno->Love parade->disaster->death..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1wH2...eature=related

  4. #104
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Eugenics is defined as the betterment of the human gene pool through selective breeding.
    Given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    The fact that genes play a significant role in behavior, intelligence, and illnesses such as cancer and cystic fibrosis is pretty well established.
    From "Genetics 101" -

    Genotype + Environment = Phenotype

    It's not just genetics, it's nutrition, stability of environment, upbringing, life experiences, and all else that happens to an organism during the period from its birth to it's maturation that define its ultimate capability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    What would be so wrong with sterilizing people with mental retardation or serious inheritable diseases? Is it not cruel to let a child be born with a 90% chance of getting, say, Huntington's disease?
    What would be wrong with sterilizing you? I'm sure you have some faults, you are human aren't you? Why let YOU live? Thank God you're not in charge of anything significant.

    Such practice is already at work to some degree, but in the form of abortion.
    Did you know that over 75% of children that are identified to have Down's Syndrome (Trisomy 21) via amniotic fluid testing are aborted?
    What if the child were only going to be a Down's carrier?
    What if the amniotic testing was improperly conducted and hence yielded false results?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    If I were in charge, I would first sterilize all violent criminals. Yes, there is a small percentage of people in federal prison who are innocent, but the vast majority are not. Raising a child is one of the most demanding things a person can do, and a violent offender will more than likely not be able to stimulate the child's curiosity in a positive way or teach them moral lessons or anything else of the sort. This creates a cycle of crime and poverty that is difficult or impossible to break out of.
    Did just read "1984"?
    You certainly are showing signs of being an elitist.
    Relish your own self aggrandizement, for no one else does...

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    The mentally retarded or borderline retarded should be sterilized as well. The boundary should be at an IQ of 80; if yours is below 80, you will be sterilized, and if it's higher, then you won't be sterilized. Intelligence has a strong genetic component and people with low intelligence will probably be unable to raise moral and intelligent children. I realize IQ is faulty and arbitrary, and saying that a person with an IQ of 122 is more "intelligent" than someone with an IQ of 120 is ridiculous. What isn't ridiculous is saying that a person with an IQ of 100 is clearly more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 80.
    :zzz:

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    If you want to have kids, fine; there are plenty of them up for adoption all over the world. People have to realize that there are things more important than their own personal desires; the maintenance of the human gene pool is one of them.
    It's not your place to tell the rest of the world how to optimize the evolution of the human race, and based on your discussions of how you think it should occur, I'd wager that if you had your way, a planet of human sociopaths would quickly become reality.

    I'd consider feeding the sick and the needy or doing something else useful with your time, it might make you a better person.
    Be thankful for your blessings and do not wish ill on those with less than you, for you could become just like them in the blink of an eye, and thus subject to your own rules of sterilization/extermination.
    And there lies the big question:

    Are you capable of living under your own system as noted above?

    The look on your face if your wife or girlfriend's child was determined to have a child within her that did not meet your minimal criteria for existence would indeed be interesting to see.

    -Halla
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    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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  5. #105
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Halla makes a good point about the sterilisation idea, I would volunteer for it if it could be evidenced that I had recessive genes and also that they were as recessive relative to those of others, however I think of eugenics more in a sense of some sort of biometric profiling, either a scheme which people can buy or which is provided at tax expense depending on whether or not its that necessary or popular, and with this information people can make informed decisions about who they choose to couple up with and what the prospects for children are.

    A very ENTJ planner idea I know but anyway.

  6. #106

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    Apart from the points everyone else made it is just a stupid sounding word.

  7. #107
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Halla makes a good point about the sterilisation idea, I would volunteer for it if it could be evidenced that I had recessive genes and also that they were as recessive relative to those of others, however I think of eugenics more in a sense of some sort of biometric profiling, either a scheme which people can buy or which is provided at tax expense depending on whether or not its that necessary or popular, and with this information people can make informed decisions about who they choose to couple up with and what the prospects for children are.

    A very ENTJ planner idea I know but anyway.
    Unfortunately fraught with the somewhat usual ENTJ drawback of it'll only work if you can strong arm it because you'll never get such a one-sided plan to work in a democracy. Irritating as it may be even people who aren't ENTJs get to vote! The darned impertinent fools!!!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #108
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Apart from the points everyone else made it is just a stupid sounding word.
    Oh, I thought it was kinda cool in that 1930's "We are SOOOO bringing the utopia of tomorrow into the world of today!" kind of way.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, I thought it was kinda cool in that 1930's "We are SOOOO bringing the utopia of tomorrow into the world of today!" kind of way.
    It needs more modern buzz. What about Six Stigma?

  10. #110
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Merit isnt in question, I'm talking about personal responsibility, social conscience and consequential thinking. I see the question of Eugenics in that order of things.
    Okay, so basically you are saying that the PRACTICE of eugenics in order to produce viable offspring is a matter of moral responsibility both for individual parents as well as society leaders who need to deal with the burden that deficient offspring might put on the system?

    (Thanks, if I got that right. I totally wasn't getting that before.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Did you know that over 75% of children that are identified to have Down's Syndrome (Trisomy 21) via amniotic fluid testing are aborted?
    What if the child were only going to be a Down's carrier?
    What if the amniotic testing was improperly conducted and hence yielded false results?
    pretty clearly, they would just have to be chalked up as unfortunate casualities of a flawed but well-meant system... similar to capital punishment with its inherent racial imbalance in the USA.

    In any case, the funny thing is that the OP argument is still assuming a specific set of priorities and standards, without realizing that other priorities exist.

    There might be things that result from adversity and having a particular demographic in society with need of care that strengthens and makes more resilient the human race overall. In other words, individuals within a society can be flawed by a particular definition, yet the aggregate for the actual race and culture might be stronger with their presence.

    In this case, the "human race" is benefited by permitted anomalies to exist rather than trying to stamp them out in some apparent fit of OCD madness.

    The look on your face if your wife or girlfriend's child was determined to have a child within her that did not meet your minimal criteria for existence would indeed be interesting to see.
    Now there's a hypothetical for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Halla makes a good point about the sterilisation idea, I would volunteer for it if it could be evidenced that I had recessive genes and also that they were as recessive relative to those of others, however I think of eugenics more in a sense of some sort of biometric profiling, either a scheme which people can buy or which is provided at tax expense depending on whether or not its that necessary or popular, and with this information people can make informed decisions about who they choose to couple up with and what the prospects for children are.

    A very ENTJ planner idea I know but anyway.
    Which is all nice, for people to maybe take specific responsibility for themselves, but don't responsible people already do this, and irresponsible people fail to do it? I don't think formalizing the idea of eugenics will change the current practice of reproduction too greatly, if there is no forced compliance, since the responsible already comply and the irresponsible don't.

    Meanwhile the OP seems specifically to be advocating "forced eugencis" on social undesirables as determined by whoever happens to be in power... which is basically facist by nature, and the bulk of the discussion is being centered around imposed eugenics.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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