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Thread: Bin Laden dead

  1. #161
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    About damn time.
    My thoughts exactly. I wonder how much it cost.

    Yesterday, I watched a movie called "Man on a Wire". It was about some French guy who walked a tightrope between the two towers of the World Trade Center. Then I spent an hour reading about 9/11. Today, I'm driving down to a town in Illinois where I was when 9/11 happened. Little coincidences...

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  2. #162
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Can you frame this for us? In terms of the prominence of it? Is this just rare zeal? Backwoods areas? Or is this in your opinion the natural outcome of Islamic faith?.
    No, I don't think it's the natural outcome of Islam. Just like I don't think it's the natural outcome of Christianity either. Both can be said to have an almost metaphysical view of anti-secular sentiments - and anti-Jewish views as well (as if being antisecular and antisemetic weren't bad enough in themselves). Any believer who takes it too seriously, and doesn't temper it down with a progressive attitude.. or focuses religion on more esoteric/deeper matters of the heart (rather than law) is destined to be a zealot. Christianity has accomplished this more down the centuries for various reasons. Some branches of Islam have as well (like Sufi, who unfortunately get persecuted by Sunnis and Shiites alike).

  3. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    My thoughts exactly. I wonder how much it cost.

    Yesterday, I watched a movie called "Man on a Wire". It was about some French guy who walked a tightrope between the two towers of the World Trade Center. Then I spent an hour reading about 9/11. Today, I'm driving down to a town in Illinois where I was when 9/11 happened. Little coincidences...
    I think there's a lot of things have happened between 9/11 and Bin Laden's demise which are part of the same issue, they have killed a lot of the rogue third world state leaders, demonstrated the capacity of the US to carry out war simultaneously on two fronts in two different fronts (if not different hemispheres just yet) while also experiencing no diminished capacity in maintaining all their existing deployments globally (chasing ruskie subs around the north pole no less). The liquidation of the middle eastern states which have existed prior to 9/11 which is only materialising today is at least part of this process.

  4. #164
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Any believer who takes it too seriously, and doesn't temper it down with a progressive attitude.. or focuses religion on more esoteric/deeper matters of the heart (rather than law) is destined to be a zealot. Christianity has accomplished this more down the centuries for various reasons (progressiveness). Some branches of Islam have as well (like Sufi, who unfortunately get persecuted by Sunnis and Shiites alike).
    Yeah, that was kind of my intuition on it, but I know I haven't studied Islam and/or Islamic history in detail enough to be sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus
    After the Treaty of Versailles had been signed (in 1919), Marshal Foch stated: "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years."
    I guess the strategy there is that, if you're going to go as far as the Treaty did, you'd better go the rest of the way too (and in this case, take Rhineland).
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  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    No, I don't think it's the natural outcome of Islam. Just like I don't think it's the natural outcome of Christianity either. Both can be said to have an almost metaphysical view of anti-secular sentiments - and anti-Jewish views as well (as if being antisecular and antisemetic weren't bad enough in themselves). Any believer who takes it too seriously, and doesn't temper it down with a progressive attitude.. or focuses religion on more esoteric/deeper matters of the heart (rather than law) is destined to be a zealot. Christianity has accomplished this more down the centuries for various reasons. Some branches of Islam have as well (like Sufi, who unfortunately get persecuted by Sunnis and Shiites alike).
    Its funny that you describe both Muslims and Christians who arent look warm secularists and anti-semites as Zealots, you know when you consider the origin of that word.

  6. #166

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    I'll be really honest with all you well meaning liberals who're using this as occasion to critique imperial hubris, wasteful war spending etc. etc. All the hackneyed bug bears.

    None of it will save you from the violence inspired by Bin Laden, the 7/7 bombers in the UK who were brought to trial talked about how they found "tortured liberals" in the west laughable and didnt really care about crimes carried out by the west, they were going to act as they did anyway.

  7. #167
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its funny that you describe both Muslims and Christians who arent look warm secularists and anti-semites as Zealots, you know when you consider the origin of that word.
    Heh. Yeah, talk about role reversal.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  8. #168
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its funny that you describe both Muslims and Christians who arent look warm secularists and anti-semites as Zealots, you know when you consider the origin of that word.
    What does being Secularist have to do with being luke warm? The only time the Bible made a condemnation on lukewarm behavior was in the area of ethics. Being iffy about doing what is right. One can do still do that, and be secular. A great majority of early church fathers - along with some writers of the NT - were secular themselves. They weren't necessarily ascetics or exclusivists in their philosophy. You can find Hellenistic methods in Paul's thought, you can explicitly find all kinds of Hellenic thought incorporated in the writings from saints that Christians venerate.. some whose words even become the near equivalent of divine truth after they die.. such as Augustine's reliance on Plato, or Aquinas on Aristostle. And the myriad Christians who were scientists, commentators or purveyors of common, artistic, or political activities in their day. Some very cosmopolitan men in their time (some women too). All keeping a foot in the secular. You condemn anyone like that and you condemn your own saints.

  9. #169
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Porrrrrn in the USA!

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  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    What does being Secularist have to do with being luke warm? The only time the Bible made a condemnation on lukewarm behavior was in the area of ethics. Being iffy about doing what is right. One can do still do that, and be secular. A great majority of early church fathers - along with some writers of the NT - were secular themselves. They weren't necessarily ascetics or exclusivists in their philosophy. You can find Hellenistic methods in Paul's thought, you can explicitly find all kinds of Hellenic thought incorporated in the writings from saints that Christians venerate.. some whose words even become the near equivalent of divine truth after they die.. such as Augustine's reliance on Plato, or Aquinas on Aristostle. And the myriad Christians who were scientists, commentators or purveyors of common, artistic, or political activities in their day. Some very cosmopolitan men in their time (some women too). All keeping a foot in the secular. You condemn anyone like that and you condemn your own saints.
    I dont condemn the saints. I condemn secularism.

    I dont believe the reasons why an Christian believer would feel the need to embrace or support secularism are valid, if I take a small sample of what are usually supplied as reasons to support secularism, its respect of minorities, its respect and care for the marginalised, its division between canon/religious law and temporal order, diversity or disparity of opinions in public life, those things all existed prior to the present age and epoch, they didnt need secularism. All secularism has been is a flag of convenience under which the anti-religious, those most antagonistic to religion and athiests have been able to try to pull up the tree of life by its roots.

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