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Thread: Bin Laden dead

  1. #131
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Do you really not see a difference between the unmitigated glee and rejoicing over the premeditated murder of 3,000 people and our current satisfaction from seeing the perpetrator eliminated? Really? You really think we're no better than he is?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Take a look at my post, prior to yours. What choice did the U.S. have? I'm looking at this from a pragmatic and partially objective stance, at least as it relates to the political aspect of here and now.

    As far as bin Laden was concerned, he was trained and funded by the U.S. for his sojourn as an Afghanistani freedom fighter against the Soviets. If you take a snapshot that includes that portion of history, does it mean that the U.S. deserved what it got for training this man?

    What if you take that snapshot way, way back when the Moors invaded Europe? Who's fault was that?

    I can't argue that past U.S. foreign policy has created and continues to create a honey pot in the Middle East. But where I have a problem is the methodology of terrorism and killing over 3000 civilians with deliberate intent, on U.S. soil.

    I see the difference, I just it's trivial when you look at the aftermath. Both sides are celebrating the end of human life, both for their own reasons. While Bin Laden's death signifies the end of the search for the mastermind behind 9/11, how many innocent victims died as a result on both sides? Does extracting revenge and "justice" take precedence and allow us to retaliate equally against the same actions we deemed deplorable? Again, to a certain extent I get the justification behind our actions, yet that doesn't change what they are in essence. Just the hypocrisy of it all, and given how many innocent had to die on both sides to lead to this result and just how primitive it all seems to do so prevents me from viewing this as some truly joyous occasion. It all boils down the celebration of death.

    If stripped of all variables and perspectives, both sides used extreme measures to leave a lasting impression on the opposite side.

  2. #132
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    entropie-

    I'm going to say I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean by "not the only nation to persuade the Jews" (are you referring to throughout history, or in the 30s and 40s? Does persuade mean kill? I don't mean this antagonistically, I assume your first language is German), but I am not exclusively referring to them. I am also referring to gays, political dissidents, the handicapped, and racially non-ideal people according to the Nazi party (in particular, that last category and the political dissidents would mean a huge amount of death assuming no violent opposition occurred)
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #133
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    If stripped of all variables and perspectives, both sides used extreme measures to leave a lasting impression on the opposite side.
    In that case, I recommend searching for a perspective..rather than just arbritrarily stripping them away or equating them all. Even if it's a perspective from an ivory tower high up in the clouds, there must be some recognition of where better principles are at play.

    edit: BTW, this doesn't mean I condone any of the Team America "USA!" stuff.. just saying.

  4. #134
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    I see the difference, I just it's trivial when you look at the aftermath. Both sides are celebrating the end of human life, both for their own reasons. While Bin Laden's death signifies the end of the search for the mastermind behind 9/11, how many innocent victims died as a result on both sides? Does extracting revenge and "justice" take precedence and allow us to retaliate equally against the same actions we deemed deplorable? Again, to a certain extent I get the justification behind our actions, yet that doesn't change what they are in essence. Just the hypocrisy of it all, and given how many innocent had to die on both sides to lead to this result and just how primitive it all seems to do so prevents me from viewing this as some truly joyous occasion. It all boils down the celebration of death.

    If stripped of all variables and perspectives, both sides used extreme measures to leave a lasting impression on the opposite side.
    Trivial? How trivial can 3000 unnecessary, innocent civilian deaths be? It could easily have been far worse without the help of many heroes, some who gave up their lives to save many.

    Don't support the celebrations and wouldn't have participated. But I do understand why they're happening. I can't condemn them, particularly if some lost loved ones in the tragedy. It is their right.

  5. #135
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    entropie-

    I'm going to say I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean by "not the only nation to persuade the Jews" (are you referring to throughout history, or in the 30s and 40s? Does persuade mean kill? I don't mean this antagonistically, I assume your first language is German), but I am not exclusively referring to them. I am also referring to gays, political dissidents, the handicapped, and racially non-ideal people according to the Nazi party (in particular, that last category and the political dissidents would mean a huge amount of death assuming no violent opposition occurred)
    I am no historian but for instance you can take a look at how many people got persuaded and killed in Russia under Stalin. You can see that this whole time had a mentality of senseless murder, I am just sick of hearing that germans were the only one who did evil in that time.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #136
    Senior Member Virulence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Trivial? How trivial can 3000 unnecessary, innocent civilian deaths be? It could easily have been far worse without the help of many heroes, some who gave up their lives to save many.

    Don't support the celebrations and wouldn't have participated. But I do understand why they're happening. I can't condemn them, particularly if some lost loved ones in the tragedy. It is their right.
    Thousands of lives aren't trivial at all, but vengeance is a hollow thing. Killing this one man doesn't bring all those people back. Should he have paid for his crimes? Absolutely. But, when do we pay for ours?

    How many bodies - innocent lives, just like those thousands this one man claimed - had to be stepped over to get this one? We can't glorify this man's death any more than the extremists he inspired glorified the deaths that they caused. That leads to a vicious cycle of constant retaliation, and where does that end?
    I believe in make believe.

  7. #137
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virulence View Post
    Thousands of lives aren't trivial at all, but vengeance is a hollow thing. Killing this one man doesn't bring all those people back. Should he have paid for his crimes? Absolutely. But, when do we pay for ours?

    How many bodies - innocent lives, just like those thousands this one man claimed - had to be stepped over to get this one? We can't glorify this man's death any more than the extremists he inspired glorified the deaths that they caused. That leads to a vicious cycle of constant retaliation, and where does that end?
    Go back and read my other posts in this thread. I'm not going to repeat my arguments.

  8. #138
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I am no historian but for instance you can take a look at how many people got persuaded and killed in Russia under Stalin. You can see that this whole time had a mentality of senseless murder, I am just sick of hearing that germans were the only one who did evil in that time.
    No, of course not. Germans weren't by any means the only nation to make poor choices (and especially in the state of desperation they found themselves in at the time Hitler rose to power), and I actually quite like the modern German nation (I am actually predominantly German and Russian, though I was personally born in America). But let's take Russia. Russia's murder was limited by their borders to some degree. If Stalin felt he could easily conquer the rest of the world, then he likely would have and slaughter would have grown exponentially as a result of having more citizens. However, the threat of violent opposition to their expansion of power kept Stalin in check. I can't imagine he had moral issues with attempting to conquer other nations, after all.

    I would like to reiterate that I certainly don't mean any offense to you or the modern nation of Germany when I reference the Germany of the past, just as I don't think America's treatment of Native Americans or acceptance of slavery reflects the morals of modern America.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  9. #139
    Senior Member Virulence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Go back and read my other posts in this thread. I'm not going to repeat my arguments.
    I did! I'm not disagreeing with your main point at all, which seems to be: He paid for his crimes. This is really good.

    But, I don't think it ends there. I really really wish it did, but I don't think it does.
    I believe in make believe.

  10. #140
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    No, of course not. Germans weren't by any means the only nation to make poor choices (and especially in the state of desperation they found themselves in at the time Hitler rose to power), and I actually quite like the modern German nation (I am actually predominantly German and Russian, though I was personally born in America). But let's take Russia. Russia's murder was limited by their borders to some degree. If Stalin felt he could easily conquer the rest of the world, then he likely would have and slaughter would have grown exponentially as a result of having more citizens. However, the threat of violent opposition to their expansion of power kept Stalin in check. I can't imagine he had moral issues with attempting to conquer other nations, after all.

    I would like to reiterate that I certainly don't mean any offense to you or the modern nation of Germany when I reference the Germany of the past, just as I don't think America's treatment of Native Americans or acceptance of slavery reflects the morals of modern America.
    None taken, I can be too be a bit sensitive about the topic and exaggerate some things .

    I liked your initial standpoint, I think about it that 100 years ago a human life hold much lesser value than it does today and in another 100 years hopefully it even holds more value again. This is some sort of development mankind is going thru. Regarding Bin Laden, I dunno I too am a victim to how I feel about it. After what he did in New York he just gamed away his right to live in my eyes, tho I of course now that rationally my perception is way off..

    Well.. we really need a vulcan for the tough decisions
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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