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Thread: Bin Laden dead

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Believe me, I share concern, but death comes in degrees.. and so do acts of brutality or retaliation. And the reasons behind them.

    For some reason though, terrorism.. and just overt, public zealotry is much worse than this.

    And I'm not speaking just from a US perspective. I'm part Asian, and I'm concerned about matters there too, where extreme Islam gets so bad that even a largely Buddhist country like Thailand is pissed off. These people behave like cockroaches.. worse actually. I don't mind roaches that much. This is what their zealotry amounts to randoms.. this woman was simply riding her motorcycle in their neighborhood, and they decided to lynch her and set her on fire. Before you get upset about people being happy that Bin Laden is dead, get upset at this. Look at where their ideology leads to. It's not even the same.

    Exactly - they're arguing for tolerance of intolerance. It's preposterous. I tolerate other people just fine, as long as they aren't hurting other people. I tolerate other people's ghey religious beliefs and their dumb entertainment choices and their different sexual preferences and a whole host of choices a person could make on any given day that I disagree with or dislike. Live and let live. As long as it isn't hurting other people, let them do as they please, even if that means worshiping chalk in a triangular formation three minutes before sundown each night, and living perpetually as a nudist who is legally married to a cat, a transgendered woman, and a gay man.

    But this shit...no. I'm not gonna fucking tolerate it, because to do so is to allow obvious bodily harm to innocent people. MANY innocent people, and many of them simply by whether or not they have a penis or a vagina.

  2. #122

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    I knew this was in the works, I also suspected that he was in Pakistan too.

    Question is whether or not this will totally destablise what had already been becoming a pretty unstable region, what about the nukes? They definitely have them in Pakistan, I'll bet it was a big part of the reason why Bin Laden choose that as his base of operations, that and its proximity to other campaign zones and Pakistan's origins as a post-colonial political Islamic state.

    To be honest I think there's a hell of a lot of reasons why he deserved to be killed rather than brought to trial, he's on a lot of videos admitting complete responsibility for the targetting of civilians and host of other war crimes, his message was one which unambiguously breached the rules of war and advocated annihilation (not a legitimate war aim). I would really hope that there is no martyrology of him now but I suspect there will be.

    Comparisons with Che Guevara are away off, I'm not a supporter of Che or Che mania but Che did not advocate armed struggle were political or democratic means were not exhausted or prohibited, he didnt advocate terror or targetting civilians.

    While in many ways both embarked upon doomed struggles and were more interested in a "good death" than a "good life" or finding something to "die for" than to "live for", a legitimate grievance against extremists of all stripes, the comparison ends there for me.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    I agree with this to a certain extent. I don't see how the argument celebrating this occasion makes us any better or worse morally than the celebrations of the Muslim extremists who celebrated the falling of the World Trade Center and the deaths of innocent Americans. Granted he obviously wasn't some innocent pedestrian, and disregarding the death toll numbers, we're basically reacting in a similar fashion yet the only difference here is the context and circumstances. It just all seems very Code of Hammurabi-esque to me.
    It's some pretty important context and circumstances. Bin Laden set out to kill innocent civilians as they were going about their daily commute. We set out to remove him from the equation, exact justice, and send a firm message to others who might want to take a page from his book. Do you really not see a difference between the unmitigated glee and rejoicing over the premeditated murder of 3,000 people and our current satisfaction from seeing the perpetrator eliminated? Really? You really think we're no better than he is? We're not talking about killing the people who were happy about the World Trade Center deaths. We're talking about killing the dude who arranged it. Context is EVERYTHING. It's why we put Ted Bundy on death row, and not the guy who stole a Snapple from a convenience store.
    Something Witty

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Again, no. The U.S. pursued an enemy which threated it's ideals, which in a very simplistic good vs bad way makes sense, yet that analysis is completely devoid of any of the particulars. Were the tactics used in pursuit of finding this threat, which inevitably led to innocent casualties on eastern soil make our actions somehow different or admirable? My question isn't whether or not we were justified in our actions, but my question is what's the difference when you analyze it from an overall view. Both sides acted in what they believe was their god given mission, one being in retaliation and the other being the initiator. The nature of the conflict extends beyond simply 9/11, and to think it's not all interconnected doesn't paint an accurate picture.
    Take a look at my post, prior to yours. What choice did the U.S. have? I'm looking at this from a pragmatic and partially objective stance, at least as it relates to the political aspect of here and now.

    As far as bin Laden was concerned, he was trained and funded by the U.S. for his sojourn as an Afghanistani freedom fighter against the Soviets. If you take a snapshot that includes that portion of history, does it mean that the U.S. deserved what it got for training this man?

    What if you take that snapshot way, way back when the Moors invaded Europe? Who's fault was that?

    I can't argue that past U.S. foreign policy has created and continues to create a honey pot in the Middle East. But where I have a problem is the methodology of terrorism and killing over 3000 civilians with deliberate intent, on U.S. soil.

  5. #125
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Again, no. The U.S. pursued an enemy which threated it's ideals, which in a very simplistic good vs bad way makes sense, yet that analysis is completely devoid of any of the particulars. Were the tactics used in pursuit of finding this threat, which inevitably led to innocent casualties on eastern soil make our actions somehow different or admirable?
    My overall view thinks that the one side that holds some basic adherence to.. lets say.. Athenian ideals.. is closer to the correct one. Like I said earlier, I don't think it's great. Just better. I think it's one of the few times humanity didn't have it's head up his ass. A milestone, if you will. I could get very longwinded on defending the notion of democracy, avoid making a value judgement, and get into what it means in the "overall" view, but I'm fine just saying it's better for the sake of brevity.

    I could also inundate you with links and pictures and statements from extreme Islam states, and jihadist and terrorist groups to contrast it. This would be a waste of time, since no one is going to read them.. nor is anyone ignorant of these things to that extent. Google it. To claim that any of it has a valid place in the overall view - like it's productive to incorporate more of it into our overarching sense of ideals is sillyness to me. Whether it's al-Qaeda or some other group.. They don't produce anything that moves collective humanity forward.

  6. #126
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEniXyEwmzo"]Celebrations[/YOUTUBE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    As far as bin Laden was concerned, he was trained and funded by the U.S. for his sojourn as an Afghanistani freedom fighter against the Soviets. If you take a snapshot that includes that portion of history, does it mean that the U.S. deserved what it got for training this man?
    Or for that matter, did the United States deserve the Cold War for strategically allying with the Stalinist Soviet Union in order to defeat the Axis powers?

    Sometimes, neccesity is just that, and blowback is something to be anticipated, but not avoided.

  8. #128
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Does the means to death matter? What is the difference between murder and war? The latter can be justified? ...really?
    Yes. It matters A LOT. If someone walks into your place of business or home or whatever, starts randomly shooting or stabbing without any intention to stop and the only recourse is to kill or risk killing them, would you just relax yourself and say "well, I'm not even going to attempt to stop this person from randomly killing me and my loved ones"? Would you, with a straight face, say that a person who does kill that intruder is morally on the same level as Jeffrey Dahmer's rape, torture, killing and cannibalization of totally innocent and random people? If a man had the means to launch enough nukes to destroy the entire world, and the only possible way to stop him was to shoot him dead, that's officially not okay? And that's not moral absolutism, even to different ends, just like Al Qaeda has?

    I see the argument for "murder is always wrong", but if every nation but Germany took the view in World War II that we can never fight back because the moral area's too dark, then Germany's global purification of the world, killing off all religiously, physically, racially, sexually, or politically incompatible people on a global scale would have wrought FAAAAAR more pain than the war itself did.

    I mean, I'm a heavy, heavy liberal, but you can't honestly be arguing that absolute, unmitigated pacifism is a good idea, can you?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I see the argument for "murder is always wrong", but if every nation but Germany took the view in World War II that we can never fight back because the moral area's too grey Germany's global purification of the world, killing off all religiously, physically, racially, sexually, or politically incompatible people would have wrought FAAAAAR more pain than the war itself did.
    Just to be fair here, we werent the only ones in that times to persuade Jews. Other nations did that aswell, it was a part of history of that time. Germany did it the most efficient that's why its the most cruel.

    Judging from that it's hard to say if everything would have been different somehow when everybody would respect the sentence "murder is always wrong". I think you are making things to easy here.

    Regarding Bin Ladens death, I am glad you got your nemesis. Some people do overstrain their time on Earth so much that even I who doesnt like the death penalty have to say, glad he didnt go to prison..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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