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Thread: Bin Laden dead

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    What does science have to do with conflicting religious and cultural views? This isn't a technological war, nor is it primarily over resources, as only one side(Us) really stand from a realistic position to benefit. It's one thing to have national/cultural pride, yet it's something completely different when you begin spread your views and outlook around as the objective moral standard for which everyone must abide by. It's condescending suggest that various cultural differences equates to some type of stagnation of social evolution on their part.
    Yes, their society is socially and scientifically stagnant and to suggest otherwise is just absurd.

  2. #112
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I'm talking everywhere, primarily amongst U.S. citizens. From a foreigner's perspective, it all seems so awkward and weird. Death is death. There's a bigger problem to solve: the popularization of death.
    Would this be a bad time to mention I kinda like death metal?

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    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I'm talking everywhere, primarily amongst U.S. citizens. From a foreigner's perspective, it all seems so awkward and weird. Death is death. There's a bigger problem to solve: the popularization of death.
    Believe me, I share concern, but death comes in degrees.. and so do acts of brutality or retaliation. And the reasons behind them.

    For some reason though, terrorism.. and just overt, public zealotry is much worse than this.

    And I'm not speaking just from a US perspective. I'm part Asian, and I'm concerned about matters there too, where extreme Islam gets so bad that even a largely Buddhist country like Thailand is pissed off. These people behave like cockroaches.. worse actually. I don't mind roaches that much. This is what their zealotry amounts to randoms.. this woman was simply riding her motorcycle in their neighborhood, and they decided to lynch her and set her on fire. Before you get upset about people being happy that Bin Laden is dead, get upset at this. Look at where their ideology leads to. It's not even the same.


  4. #114
    Insert Snarky Quip Here Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, their society is socially and scientifically stagnant and to suggest otherwise is just absurd.
    Scientifically(technologically)? Sure. Socially? Can't say. Just two entirely different cultures, to which I don't see one as being 'right' or 'wrong'.

  5. #115
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    In a very simplistic and hollow sense, yes we accomplished a goal. Yet even then, do we allow ourselves to become content with this, or do we beg to ask some of the unpopular questions that require us to dig further beneath the surface?
    You've avoided my questions. Plse answer them. Let's start with "Do you suppose bin Laden would have allowed himself to be taken alive?".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Scientifically(technologically)? Sure. Socially? Can't say. Just two entirely different cultures, to which I don't see one as being 'right' or 'wrong'.
    Socially, yes, because of the way women are treated as property and non-people.

    Yes, socially they are retarded, too.

    Now, I'm not saying this has anything to do with genetic evolution, because it doesn't. It has more to do with never escaping the ignorance and stagnation of organized religion pre-science.

    There was another thread where this was being discussed - that at least science is open to change with new information, while religion just stays the same, no matter what new information it might be presented with. This can lead to serious fucking problems with social and intellectual growth.

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    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    You've avoided my questions. Plse answer them. Let's start with "Do you suppose bin Laden would have allowed himself to be taken alive?".
    And the extended question: when someone is violent and dangerous and clearly antagonistic and a persistent threat to human life, do you allow them to continue to operate simply because some similarly motivated people might be upset by their capture or death?

    Fact is, in some cases, even the most liberal of human rights organizations (I'm very liberal myself), suggest the only plausible answer to an issue as "humanitarian force" (for example, in dealing with the Lord's Resistance Army)
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #118
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Somewhat speculative. The US has more bloodlust than some other nations, and more than I am generally okay with (I have death penalty issues), but bin Laden's death involved a firefight, not an execution. I'm not sure the reaction would be so different if he were captured.
    Does the means to death matter? What is the difference between murder and war? The latter can be justified? ...really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Or it could just be the meglomaniacal agenda of a brainwashed, sexually repressed invidual who srsly believes they'll be rewarded with 70 virgins in heaven.

    I really fucking hate their beliefs. 70 virgins. The basic tenants of their religion reduce females to mere objects to be obtained, not human beings of their own merit.

    Anyway, no one is rejoicing over the deaths of innocent God-fearing Muslims here, they're relieved that an extremist, murderous cult leader is dead.

    I'll be happy if Ghaddafi dies too, and I'd be equally as happy if the oppressor in question were a Christian like Hitler.
    I think you give too much credit to the power of will as oppose to the power of external intervention. I don't think men are, by nature or by will, "evil." I think it's the forces that surround them that makes them so.


    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Would this be a bad time to mention I kinda like death metal?
    I like pie, too

  9. #119
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    And the extended question: when someone is violent and dangerous and clearly antagonistic and a persistent threat to human life, do you allow them to continue to operate simply because some similarly motivated people might be upset by their capture or death?

    Fact is, in some cases, even the most liberal of human rights organizations (I'm very liberal myself), suggest the only plausible answer to an issue as "humanitarian force" (for example, in dealing with the Lord's Resistance Army)
    Yes, there's the human life aspect but also, there's the political implications to allowing someone to waltz onto American soil, take 3000 lives in the heart of the financial district and the Pentagon. What message are you sending to terrorists and other hostile countries if you allow the symbol of their nose thumbing to go free and live a long and prosperous life with no consequences to his actions?

    What choice did the U.S. have between looking ineffectual or doing something about the aggression? Sitting back and hoping the terrorists won't strike again isn't realistic and while turning the other cheek is a Christian belief, in real life it doesn't work that way.

    I don't support much of the U.S. Middle East policies of past and present, but I do fully support the right of the American people to take down bin Laden. If the covert ops had for some crazy reason managed to capture him alive which I doubt they could have, the diplomatic tangle that would have surrounded his capture and the possibilities for escape or worse yet, some form of justice loophole that set him free, would have been beyond horrific. This man deserved to die, if only for the closure of the 3000 families and loved ones.

  10. #120
    Insert Snarky Quip Here Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    You've avoided my questions. Plse answer them. Let's start with "Do you suppose bin Laden would have allowed himself to be taken alive?".
    Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Let's look at this from another perspective. Do you suppose bin Laden would have allowed himself to be taken alive?
    Obviously not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Or do you believe the U.S. should have just forgotten about him and allowed him to live a long and prosperous life?
    Again, no. The U.S. pursued an enemy which threated it's ideals, which in a very simplistic good vs bad way makes sense, yet that analysis is completely devoid of any of the particulars. Were the tactics used in pursuit of finding this threat, which inevitably led to innocent casualties on eastern soil make our actions somehow different or admirable? My question isn't whether or not we were justified in our actions, but my question is what's the difference when you analyze it from an overall view. Both sides acted in what they believe was their god given mission, one being in retaliation and the other being the initiator. The nature of the conflict extends beyond simply 9/11, and to think it's not all interconnected doesn't paint an accurate picture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Socially, yes, because of the way women are treated as property and non-people.

    Yes, socially they are retarded, too.

    Now, I'm not saying this has anything to do with genetic evolution, because it doesn't. It has more to do with never escaping the ignorance and stagnation of organized religion pre-science.

    There was another thread where this was being discussed - that at least science is open to change with new information, while religion just stays the same, no matter what new information it might be presented with. This can lead to serious fucking problems with social and intellectual growth.
    While we are more evolved economically then they are which attributes to greater technological advances, it's not really relevant to the nature of the conflict. We're very much a religious nation, and to deny that would be absurd. There's still very much a social stigma in this country when it comes to publicly denouncing religion -- the question of our current presidents' religion was used as fuel to attempt to jeopardize his campaign. Separation between church and state is preached, but definitely not practiced to the full extent it should in this country.

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