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  1. #111
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Once they kill a person who is innocent of the capital crime what can be done then? Who is the killer then? What if a close friend or family member was wrongfully executed?

    My main issue is more about the government/prosecution using their discretion, to execute, to intimidate people waive the right for a jury trial and appeal in order to plea to "life without parole" for crimes where there is reasonable doubt and reversable error at pretrial.

    This is a collateral cost to the tax payer to house all of these people for the rest of their lives.
    I think that the fate of criminals were execution is an appropriate response should be in the hands of the next of kin and they can opt for mercy or an execution, therefore the taxpayers who dont support the death penalty and the state itself dont have to suffer any bad conscience. I also think it is likely to give greater satisfaction for victims families than the present or simply dispensing with executions altogether.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    EXACTLY! the death penalty has been used throughout European history to oppress and control ordinary citizens and prevent dissent and intellectualism
    So because something can be misused it cant have any other or any correct application? Those sorts of black and white assessments are pretty commonplace on this forum, despite a lot of very modern moral relativism.

  3. #113
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think that the fate of criminals were execution is an appropriate response should be in the hands of the next of kin and they can opt for mercy or an execution....
    Although against the death penalty in general I think that the above exception/ability for the immediate family to grant clemency isn't a bad idea.

    As things stand at present in most western jurisdictions, capital crimes are deemed crimes against the state [not the individual] and thus would be a variation, albeit slight, on this general principle.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #114
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    I think that the fate of criminals were execution is an appropriate response should be in the hands of the next of kin and they can opt for mercy or an execution, therefore the taxpayers who dont support the death penalty and the state itself dont have to suffer any bad conscience.
    In response to the bolded:

    Who cares?

    More importantly, why does it matter?

    So because something can be misused it cant have any other or any correct application?
    This statement pretty much sums up this entire thread, or at least one side of it.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Although against the death penalty in general I think that the above exception/ability for the immediate family to grant clemency isn't a bad idea.

    As things stand at present in most western jurisdictions, capital crimes are deemed crimes against the state [not the individual] and thus would be a variation, albeit slight, on this general principle.
    Its about changing that, crimes have an impact upon the individual, if it effects the state it is usually in an abstract sense of an injury to law and order, I dont like that and I dont think it reflects the understand of what most people consider when pursuing redress for injury or death through the courts.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    In response to the bolded:

    Who cares?

    More importantly, why does it matter?



    This statement pretty much sums up this entire thread, or at least one side of it.
    Who cares? All the people with "Not in my name" placards, why does it matter? I understand those pressure groups to be the mainstay of the anti-execution sentiment.

  7. #117
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    You didn't understand what I was asking Lark.

    It's probably my fault for not asking the question more cleary.

    It was taking into account the proposed change where victims family's would control what punishment was enforced.

    What I meant to ask was:

    Why, in the grand scheme of things where the accused will die anyway, does it matter if the justice system executes someone (as opposed to the vitcim's family determining the punishment) and, consequently, those opposed to the death penalty feel guilty (in some infintesimal way).

    Are the feelings of a group of people more important than a legal system that works the vast majority of the time?

    Are these feelings so important that their protection warrants a wholesale change of our legal system and all of the exogenous costs such a change would entail?

    This assumption that emotional arguments like these take precedence over established systems our country has taken centuries to develop baffles me.

    When the calculas involves life and death results, guilt on the public conscience doesn't (in my mind) even reach the threshold of importance where it would have to be taken into accound, and could effect the overall equation.

  8. #118
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    um...i'm going to go with murder...yeah...murder is bad.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #119
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    I'm against death penalty.

    I would replace it with life in prison without parole, or any kind of visits, letters, or any contact. No books, no going out in the yard, no nothing. For murderers. Because it's worse than dying.

    And there's the more sadistic option of a death penalty after spending most of their lives in prison.

    This would only apply for the murder of "innocent" people.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You didn't understand what I was asking Lark.

    It's probably my fault for not asking the question more cleary.

    It was taking into account the proposed change where victims family's would control what punishment was enforced.

    What I meant to ask was:

    Why, in the grand scheme of things where the accused will die anyway, does it matter if the justice system executes someone (as opposed to the vitcim's family determining the punishment) and, consequently, those opposed to the death penalty feel guilty (in some infintesimal way).

    Are the feelings of a group of people more important than a legal system that works the vast majority of the time?

    Are these feelings so important that their protection warrants a wholesale change of our legal system and all of the exogenous costs such a change would entail?

    This assumption that emotional arguments like these take precedence over established systems our country has taken centuries to develop baffles me.

    When the calculas involves life and death results, guilt on the public conscience doesn't (in my mind) even reach the threshold of importance where it would have to be taken into accound, and could effect the overall equation.
    Oh OK, I dont think its an emotional argument, I dont think that the conservation of the legal system as is could a sufficient reason to persuade me that my view that punishment should fit the crime and that satisfaction of the victims or their kin should be the purpose of criminal justice.

    The consequences of reforming all punitive measures out of criminal justice in the developed world and increasingly factoring out victim impact from the delivery of justice wont be known for a long time, probably not even in my life time, although I believe that in conjunction with demographic shifts it will result in more and more shocking crime.

    History speaks volumes about what happens when legitimate authorities appear to all to be weak and ineffectual.

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