Haven't read the thread beyond the opening post so what I'm posting might be repetitive.
Could only watch the first part of the clip and found it nauseating. It looks like the guy trying to separate everyone was the manager. He was totally ineffective. There were two of them. He should have stood his ground in front of the poor woman being beaten and had the staff escort out the two psychopaths.
The odds of people helping are very low. It's as simple as this.
What's disturbing in the video is that those are women fighting, and it's not like they can kick your ass or anything. I guess I would have helped in that case. But if those were 2 men, and I would have been alone, I don't know if I would have helped. And it's even more disturbing that..because some fucker decided to record it all and post it on the interned, instead doing something. (which is actually pretty common)
There was a similar case in my neighbourhood, when a cab driver was beaten to death with a chain. I wouldn't have helped there either. But I guess I would have tried to persuade the people who were watching to help, and if they wouldn't, then I wouldn't have done anything alone.
This has very little to do with "thinking about it", it's about the instinct to help.
And it's fucked up. Because if you help you're on your own. That's why nobody helps.
And usually when there's a fight going on, people just gather around, rarely will you see someone try to stop the fight, and it's usually a big guy who has done that many times before. And it's interesting, usually it's the same people helping over and over.
I have a friend who's always breaking up fights, and we met last night and he told me this ridiculous story about the last fight he broke up....some guy was drunk and grabbed a knife to stab another guy who he was arguing with, and he got caught up in the middle and got his hand cut a bit.
He's the only person I know who cares when things like this happen and does something about it....and he's got caught up in the middle soooo many times (with absolutely nothing to gain) I remember he saved my ass once ...but the second time I was in a fight and needed help he didn't help. Hmm.
I guess it doesn't matter what you think in cases like this...it's all about what you do.
all I know is as much as i want to believe I'd do something, I'm honestly not a fighter, the best I could do is call the police, which sickens me, and I don't care if someone that's not biological female uses the same bathroom I use whatevs, hell if a man's bathroom is out of order and a guy friend really needed to go I'd have no problem him using the women's restroom. But of course, we're so divided by gender it's ridiculous I remember being in the men's room up til the age of 5 or 6 because my dad use to take me to breakfast on the weekends I was too young to be left alone outside the bathroom I might have been fine, but I think he was more worried about someone kidnapping me so in I went in with him. It's cool if little kids use the bathroom for a different gender, but heaven forbid a transgendered women tries to piss in the bathroom she identifies with for her gender. But yeah I watched the video a few nights ago while drunk and I can watch violent things and not have a strong viceral reaction but this I did. Not that beaten anyone once is acceptable but it didn't help they kept coming back. I am glad I'm not transgendered or gay, because of assholes like those girls do exist and like I said I'm not a fighter. I think why this happened is people hate what they don't understand<---never got that point of view I've always been curious about what I don't understand and I like to ask questions and try to figure it out. Sometimes I get in trouble for asking questions or staring, I know don't stare but it's not in you're a freak kind of way, it's in a are an approachable person that won't flip his/her shit if I ask a question.
I just realized saying nothing at all may leave too much o the imagination.
First of all I have helped people through numerous seizures. Usually the muscles contract then spaz out from there. I have never seen somone change their initial position, extend arms, then change back. I could be wrong, but that seemed very odd to me. And it isn't like the guy could have been having a real seizure then faked it to "play dead" of sorts. Seizures leave people dissociated for a little while afterward. In my opinion, the guy was just freaking out. I could be wrong.
If the guy was just freaking out, I don't blame him. If that were me, I would teach these women that if they want to hit like a man, they get it back from a man. He should have clocked them. They were acting like animals. This was not a surprise reaction or "fear" that most people claim during hate crimes. He may have freaked them out, but the level of over kill, shows these were just fucked up bitches who needed to get laid the fuck out themselves. There was no reason what so ever to keep going back and attacking someone who was not fighting back.
As far as the guy goes. I feel bad for him, but come on. As unfoprtunate as it is, this is the way some people behave with these types of things. What do you expect to happen if you go out challenging the status quo? Try using a little discretion. If someone asks you to leave the bathroom, just fucking leave. The dangers to transgender individuals is not a new concept. At least wait until you can pass for a woman, before taking a stance against a group of girls in a womens bathroom. I am not saying this is fair, but it is wise. The entire situation could have been avoided, if he simply used the other restroom. Understanding is a two way street. For people to understand you, and for you to understand their positions back. It seems hypoctritical to have become a victim over this.
In my opinion, the ONLY person who acted human in that video, was the older woman. In my book she is the epitome of badass, and deserves a little trophy.
Wow, calling the victim "he" shows a lot about where you're coming from. Sad.
Originally Posted by ThatGirl
It is not them who are making the decision to blur the lines, and as the person who is, I think it is your responsibility to take the higher road and leave the bathroom if it is making everyone uncomfortable.
I hate people who shove their "Deal with my decisions or else," mentality in everyone else's face. I personally would leave the restroom if there was a man with a wig in it. You don't know what his sexual orientation is, or if he is simply a perve preying in women's bathrooms. Or if it is supposed to be some sort of disguise. Thinking to rob the place or something. I certainly wouldn't be caught with my pants down.
Guess by your logic I shouldn't use public toilets for the sake of other people who may get worried about what else besides going to the toilet I may want to do, their fear is soooo rational so I should indulge that. Wtf does sexual orientation have to do with anything except pathetic fear tactics? There are people out there who would beat me up just for being trans, should I therefore by your logic not leave my home in case they want to attack me?
Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt
I agree with you. And, it goes for this and every other area of life. Live with your decisions. If you choose to be different, be different, but you get what you get. Don't cry, complain, and expect special treatment for it.
So not wanting to have the crap beaten out of you is expecting special treatment now is it.
Originally Posted by ThatGirl
I am on the side of the victim here.
But you do not support her right to be treated as everyone else expects as you're saying if someone has an issue with her trans status she should scurry away lest they turn violent. You have no way of knowing how that situation could have been avoided, you are guessing, nothing more.
I'm not sure what I would do in this case. This is a very dangerous situation. I would like to think that I would simply shelter the woman in the blue dress. That is: block harm. Actually confronted with this, I'm not sure.
Certainly I do not believe I would try to incapacitate or assault the black women. Since I'm a 240 Lb white dude with shaved head and Germanic features, I don't think that would play well in the subsequent court action.
Besides it looks like sheltering would work. The old lady seemed to be helping the situation even though she doesn't seem to be very strong.
It's also possible...maybe even likely...that the filming would stop. Why? I'm not sure, but I might take the camera away. Further, the manager on duty better do something, or I would do something.
I don't want to get into the restroom debate because it's stupid. Nobody has the right to beat someone up for using the wrong restroom. Occasionally, because I'm distracted, I use the wrong restroom, and if I realize this, I apologize and step out. Yet, when I've threatened or in harassment, I typically avoid fighting if at all possible. I don't want to hurt the other person.
I've never witnessed violence against another... No take that back, I've stepped between boys who were fighting by simply physically holding them apart. This led to me getting screamed at by the mother, who incidentally had the words "CONTROL FREAK" literally written across her shirt. After that, I just clammed up, but probably go write for a long time about what I thought afterward.
Once I was in a crowded McDonald's in New Orleans, and these three black gang members were scaring a homeless elderly man with a butane lighter. They were lighting the flame, and he was staggering back. I didn't do anything. However, this is a bit of different situation. They were not beating the man up or trying to steal from him. They were scaring him a bit. There are many things to consider. First, three strong black youths in a gang, and all of their friends, could probably kick my ass. No, actually, certainly, they could kill me. But let's say I were victorious. What's to stop them from killing the homeless person later in retaliation? It might make things worse.
What if they were beating him up instead? I'm not sure. I might react.
It depends. I have...in some situations...reacted with force...when, and if, verbally the situation could not be resolved. When much younger, the force was not controlled. Later, the force was more controlled. Much of the time, I'd like to think that my very presence would stop it.
I never said she was accountable for the violence. I did say she could have avoided it.
That's kind of saying the same thing twice.
Originally Posted by ThatGirl
I completely believe this was an avoidable situation, so I hold all most involved responsible for some portion of the escalation, acts, and whatever consequences are still to come.
Looking at the situation as a whole, yes, everyone (and everything) involved contributed in one way or another to what happened. But not everyone and everything is morally responsible.
Also, on the issue of whether I'd do something or not...I'd probably call the police. That would be the extent of my action (and it would probably be the same for most other people) because, let's be honest, moral outrage aside, it's not prudent to insert yourself (unprepared) into a violent situation. Perhaps if I was someone who dealt with that kind of thing as a profession (if I was, for instance, a bouncer, cop, bounty hunter, or what have you) I'd feel secure enough to do something helpful, but otherwise, no.
You know what? I don't understand this gender crap and bathrooms. I don't. Who cares what bathroom you take a pee in.
I haven't watched the video, I don't think I need to. I find it mightly distrubing how people resort to voilence to get thier point across. I don't think I would have intervened, I'm not sure, I've been known to do strange things in the heat of the moment. I know I would have done some thing...even if it was call the cops, and I know I would have performed basic first aid afterward.
The more I see of the world, the less I understand it.
Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.