And... if two people are having a verbal confrontation, and then two of them gang up on another and pound the shit out of her while the other person is not instigating a physical confrontation, let's take a crack at which ones will get brought up on the most serious charges.
You can expect to have problems, but typically that doesn't involve getting the shit beaten out of you. I suspect you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one getting beaten up.To me, the person looked like a woman. But, if you choose to become a woman and do like a man, expect to have problems and potential confrontation for the plethora of reasons listed in previous posts.
I understand that, and I've been with other women in line before, when some of us have jumped line to the men's room because it was unoccupied. (Hilariously, I just could not bring myself to do it. It felt horrendously wrong for me, personally.)Originally Posted by ThatGirl
I have to say, that was really lousy wording on your part.Because this is a moral or emotional issue, you have to take into account both sides of the coin. It is true, men who appear to be women would raise much less alarm than a guy who very much looks like a guy. (I probably wouldn't think twice if I encountered you in the restroom, but I know you as being a woman and was shocked to find out otherwise).
It's legitimate to say that one does not automatically supercede the other, they both have their merits considered. (Again, I'll remind you that my issue with your comment is that, IMO, you were masking an emotional reaction as a rational one, and then met you in the middle by admitting I too am having emotional responses, even if I do possess some rationality that parallels it.)Because there are two sides to the coin there one emotionally driven position does not take precedence over another emotionally based decision.
To be honest, most transpeople are scared to use public restrooms.Once that occurs, the transgender individual is more aware of the ropes, has made the decisions, has more at stake, it is wise for them to simply excuse themselves from the restroom. Like I said, I wouldn't ask someone to leave, but without wanting to chat it up in the bathroom, I would probably leave myself.
They do not want a fight; they don't want people to look at them with fear and loathing in their eyes just because they're trans; they don't want to cause problems; AND they do not want to get the shit beaten out of them, when all they wanted to do was use the facility and couldn't hold it any longer. It's actually considered a right of passage (AKA "I MADE IT!!!!") when you use the bathroom and no one even looks at you again and you don't have to be scared anymore.
It's pretty sad that our culture still does not provide legitimate options.
In my practical experience, transpeople that do not blend visually either only go to established "safe" facilities (i.e., restaurants, bars, clubs, public bathrooms) that are open to transpeople, or they find a private bathroom and/or just hold it as best as possible until they get home.
I'm a little lost on what you meant by this paragraph.While they are not all like this, I have known some gay people to be very aggressive bordering on straight delusional in ways that I think they need to gain a little perspective. Case and point, a 6'2 large gay black man chasing down a 5'4 white girl yelling "I am not afraid to hit a woman!" To which I responded, "Like hell you will!" Just because you think you are a girl, doesn't suddenly make everything ever.
Why are you talking about gay people?
(PS. I also have a white 6'2" trans friend who did not pass visually, using a bathroom at a popular LGBT club, who had the door to the stall smacked open by a militant black lesbian smaller then her, who then ran her out of the bathroom into the parking lot, whereupon there were a few people involved in a parking lot fight. Apparently there are douchebags even in LGBT community, and gay is not the same as trans; we get beat up by straight, gay, AND non-trans people in this culture, just for wanting to use the bathroom.)
Legally, she was within her rights to do so.According to what was reported it sounded like this individual decided to take the stance, "I will not leave this bathroom. It is your problem, not mine." But that is just as disrespectful and non understanding as the females.
What would you do if you were black, and you had to enter a store to buy something and had no other easily available options, and you were minding your business, and some white people came up and told you to get the hell out of their store?
You might choose to leave, but only if you felt that danger was imminent. Legally, you should not be beaten up in the store. You would likely say, "I'm sorry, I'm going to finish with my purchase, and then I'm leaving, I'll only be a minute." ANd if you chose to accede to their demands, afterward I would expect you to feel shame and disgust with yourself.
I'm not sure why you are essentially blaming the victim for not leaving the bathroom 30 seconds sooner. I'm also having trouble blaming the victim if, after being everyone's continual whipping dog, she actually had a moment of backbone.
Legally, she was not responsible.This isn't really all the issue, I was just elaborating on why I stated the man/girl wasn't entirely void of responsibility.
From a personal/social perspective, it was probably safer for her to cater to those who felt no compunction about implementing violence on her in a situation where she was outnumbered. And the cycle of victimhood continues unabated. If she is going to be responsible for her own safety, it's better for her in that situation to give in to the bullies and leave the facility immediately.
Now, though.... I have a hard time believing that you, out of all people, think it's allowable for people to be threatened with violence merely for using a public restroom. That seems to go against everything I see you stand for. I see you as someone who doesn't like to put up with bullshit, and I see you as someone who stands up for victims and those being oppressed.
Am I right, or is there something else at play here that I am not perceiving?
I don't see this situation as saint vs devil at all, and to be honest, I don't like ANY of them nor have anything really in common with any of the people involved; but it still doesn't change my opinion that legally and socially and personally, it is ridiculous for two black women to bully a white woman in a public facility for doing something she needed to do and was legally permitted to do, and then feel warranted to beat the shit out of her while people stand around and laugh.One of the things I always try to watch out for, is extreme events causing extreme sways in opinion. If someone is victimized, suddenly rationality is out the window, they become a saint and the other the devil. What I saw here, was an explosion of drama that very much could have been avoided by each party showing a little respect for the others position.
In this country, it is probably one of the few actual solutions we have, considering the large differences in opinion. It took close to 100 years for blacks to receive civil rights, and they're still often not treated equal to whites in this country; I shouldn't expect anything faster for transpeople.Where I come from, there are family bathrooms, as well as womens and mens. I think this is where everything is heading. I have no problem with that if it helps to avoid unnecessary ugliness.