User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 116

  1. #61
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    You are assuming and implying that the person did nothing when the initial confrontation was missing in the tape? From what I saw, they were mouthing off to each other and they were all willing to fight at first. Just because you bite off more than you can chew doesn't make you a victim.

    And, yes. If you choose to be different don't cry or complain about it. It's that simple. If I choose to get tattoos all over my face, I don't get to complain that I can't get a job that deals face to face with customers. If you run your mouth, and get your butt beaten, don't complain about it.
    We're not talking about people getting tattoos all over their faces, and I don't think any of us were in that bathroom to see what the "trigger" was for this particular incident.

    And... if two people are having a verbal confrontation, and then two of them gang up on another and pound the shit out of her while the other person is not instigating a physical confrontation, let's take a crack at which ones will get brought up on the most serious charges.

    To me, the person looked like a woman. But, if you choose to become a woman and do like a man, expect to have problems and potential confrontation for the plethora of reasons listed in previous posts.
    You can expect to have problems, but typically that doesn't involve getting the shit beaten out of you. I suspect you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one getting beaten up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl
    I stated that the morality line is blurred, and certainly it is not really a legal issue. I have used men's bathrooms at clubs when they were empty because the women's line was like an hour long. (Also I completely agree with women's being dirtier). The difference is, if I was asked to leave by a group of men, I would.
    I understand that, and I've been with other women in line before, when some of us have jumped line to the men's room because it was unoccupied. (Hilariously, I just could not bring myself to do it. It felt horrendously wrong for me, personally.)

    Because this is a moral or emotional issue, you have to take into account both sides of the coin. It is true, men who appear to be women would raise much less alarm than a guy who very much looks like a guy. (I probably wouldn't think twice if I encountered you in the restroom, but I know you as being a woman and was shocked to find out otherwise).
    I have to say, that was really lousy wording on your part.

    Because there are two sides to the coin there one emotionally driven position does not take precedence over another emotionally based decision.
    It's legitimate to say that one does not automatically supercede the other, they both have their merits considered. (Again, I'll remind you that my issue with your comment is that, IMO, you were masking an emotional reaction as a rational one, and then met you in the middle by admitting I too am having emotional responses, even if I do possess some rationality that parallels it.)

    Once that occurs, the transgender individual is more aware of the ropes, has made the decisions, has more at stake, it is wise for them to simply excuse themselves from the restroom. Like I said, I wouldn't ask someone to leave, but without wanting to chat it up in the bathroom, I would probably leave myself.
    To be honest, most transpeople are scared to use public restrooms.

    They do not want a fight; they don't want people to look at them with fear and loathing in their eyes just because they're trans; they don't want to cause problems; AND they do not want to get the shit beaten out of them, when all they wanted to do was use the facility and couldn't hold it any longer. It's actually considered a right of passage (AKA "I MADE IT!!!!") when you use the bathroom and no one even looks at you again and you don't have to be scared anymore.

    It's pretty sad that our culture still does not provide legitimate options.

    In my practical experience, transpeople that do not blend visually either only go to established "safe" facilities (i.e., restaurants, bars, clubs, public bathrooms) that are open to transpeople, or they find a private bathroom and/or just hold it as best as possible until they get home.

    While they are not all like this, I have known some gay people to be very aggressive bordering on straight delusional in ways that I think they need to gain a little perspective. Case and point, a 6'2 large gay black man chasing down a 5'4 white girl yelling "I am not afraid to hit a woman!" To which I responded, "Like hell you will!" Just because you think you are a girl, doesn't suddenly make everything ever.
    I'm a little lost on what you meant by this paragraph.
    Why are you talking about gay people?

    (PS. I also have a white 6'2" trans friend who did not pass visually, using a bathroom at a popular LGBT club, who had the door to the stall smacked open by a militant black lesbian smaller then her, who then ran her out of the bathroom into the parking lot, whereupon there were a few people involved in a parking lot fight. Apparently there are douchebags even in LGBT community, and gay is not the same as trans; we get beat up by straight, gay, AND non-trans people in this culture, just for wanting to use the bathroom.)

    According to what was reported it sounded like this individual decided to take the stance, "I will not leave this bathroom. It is your problem, not mine." But that is just as disrespectful and non understanding as the females.
    Legally, she was within her rights to do so.

    What would you do if you were black, and you had to enter a store to buy something and had no other easily available options, and you were minding your business, and some white people came up and told you to get the hell out of their store?

    You might choose to leave, but only if you felt that danger was imminent. Legally, you should not be beaten up in the store. You would likely say, "I'm sorry, I'm going to finish with my purchase, and then I'm leaving, I'll only be a minute." ANd if you chose to accede to their demands, afterward I would expect you to feel shame and disgust with yourself.

    I'm not sure why you are essentially blaming the victim for not leaving the bathroom 30 seconds sooner. I'm also having trouble blaming the victim if, after being everyone's continual whipping dog, she actually had a moment of backbone.

    This isn't really all the issue, I was just elaborating on why I stated the man/girl wasn't entirely void of responsibility.
    Legally, she was not responsible.

    From a personal/social perspective, it was probably safer for her to cater to those who felt no compunction about implementing violence on her in a situation where she was outnumbered. And the cycle of victimhood continues unabated. If she is going to be responsible for her own safety, it's better for her in that situation to give in to the bullies and leave the facility immediately.

    Now, though.... I have a hard time believing that you, out of all people, think it's allowable for people to be threatened with violence merely for using a public restroom. That seems to go against everything I see you stand for. I see you as someone who doesn't like to put up with bullshit, and I see you as someone who stands up for victims and those being oppressed.

    Am I right, or is there something else at play here that I am not perceiving?

    One of the things I always try to watch out for, is extreme events causing extreme sways in opinion. If someone is victimized, suddenly rationality is out the window, they become a saint and the other the devil. What I saw here, was an explosion of drama that very much could have been avoided by each party showing a little respect for the others position.
    I don't see this situation as saint vs devil at all, and to be honest, I don't like ANY of them nor have anything really in common with any of the people involved; but it still doesn't change my opinion that legally and socially and personally, it is ridiculous for two black women to bully a white woman in a public facility for doing something she needed to do and was legally permitted to do, and then feel warranted to beat the shit out of her while people stand around and laugh.

    Where I come from, there are family bathrooms, as well as womens and mens. I think this is where everything is heading. I have no problem with that if it helps to avoid unnecessary ugliness.
    In this country, it is probably one of the few actual solutions we have, considering the large differences in opinion. It took close to 100 years for blacks to receive civil rights, and they're still often not treated equal to whites in this country; I shouldn't expect anything faster for transpeople.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    And, yes. If you choose to be different don't cry or complain about it. It's that simple. If I choose to get tattoos all over my face, I don't get to complain that I can't get a job that deals face to face with customers. If you run your mouth, and get your butt beaten, don't complain about it.
    So the transgender lifestyle is purely cosmetic to you? Do you believe that gender dysphoria is bunk or the choice to resolve the mental-physical discrepancy is bunk?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #63
    Anew Leaf
    Guest

    Default

    I couldn't watch the whole thing - makes me sick.

    As a woman, I don't really give a fuck who comes into the bathroom, so long as they behave like an adult. I find children far more disruptive than a random transgender wandering in. Children, unsupervised, like to crawl under stalls, rattle doors, peek through any gap, run around with TP rolls, etc.

    Yes, there may be a certain logic to saying that we reap what we sow. However, you still need to apply a common sense corrollary and think, is my reaction even close to being justified?

    Calmly going to the bathroom and not disturbing the other patrons is not equal to or greater than a physical beat down.

    But then again I subscribe to the paradigm of, you leave me alone, and I will leave you alone. Unless you're doing something that conflicts with my core beliefs, and then watch out.

    The cameraman has the same amount of culpability as the girls who are physically hurting that woman. In fact, I would say he has more culpability. The women are in the middle of some creepy throwback to a berzerker rage, while he's calmly filming something on his phone.

  4. #64
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7W6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    4,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Lot of good points here.

    Particularly like those about victims martyrs and accountability. Well made.
    It's reassuring to know that this comes from a social worker, thanks for your informed unbiased contribution.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #65
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    While they are not all like this, I have known some gay people to be very aggressive bordering on straight delusional in ways that I think they need to gain a little perspective. Case and point, a 6'2 large gay black man chasing down a 5'4 white girl yelling "I am not afraid to hit a woman!" To which I responded, "Like hell you will!" Just because you think you are a girl, doesn't suddenly make everything even.

    According to what was reported it sounded like this individual decided to take the stance, "I will not leave this bathroom. It is your problem, not mine." But that is just as disrespectful and non understanding as the females.

    This isn't really all the issue, I was just elaborating on why I stated the man/girl wasn't entirely void of responsibility. One of the things I always try to watch out for, is extreme events causing extreme sways in opinion. If someone is victimized, suddenly rationality is out the window, they become a saint and the other the devil. What I saw here, was an explosion of drama that very much could have been avoided by each party showing a little respect for the others position.

    Where I come from, there are family bathrooms, as well as womens and mens. I think this is where everything is heading. I have no problem with that if it helps to avoid unnecessary ugliness.

    Again, I am on the side of the victim. I just find the whole situation tragic in more ways than one.
    I've encountered things like what you've mentioned in your anecdote about the aggressive gay guy, while I think there's a particular issue with how minority sexual preferences and identities have been profiled in public life this is something which I think attaches itself to a lot of things, anyone with a clear sense of grievance, the right or indignance can be motivated to act in ways which they otherwise wouldnt.

    Its not an entirely Fe thing either and I think it could be as easily Te behaviour too, I remember someone I was with saying to me when an agitator with some political message was removed from the stage of a music gig I was at once that they thought the guy "had his reasons" or "is a deep thinker anyway".

    The villification and valourisation of opinions or perspectives in discussions is a bugbear of mine but it seems to be part of life, there's a crusader impulse in most people, unfortunately I think that it does excuse a lot of behaviour which it shouldnt and otherwise wouldnt be considered fine by most people and it also makes discussion per se break down, making it impossible to air doubts or second thoughts with any kind of legitimacy.

    In the end I do think that it comes back to responsibility and accountability, what I personally find lacking in a lot of these sorts of modern day cultural clashes, even when they dont escalate to violence (and some people do invite it, not saying this was the case, not saying its generally the case or that anyone participating in this forum is that sort of person but there definitely are those sorts of people out there), is the disappearence of social conscience or conscientiousness about actions and behaviour per se.

  6. #66
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    9
    Posts
    409

    Default

    you know, it just sounds like the person was asserting their right to use the restroom, she was a paying customer as well. no different then rosa parks asserting to be seated were she chose on the bus. In hindsight im sure many people agree that it was a petty thing to arrest rosa parks.

  7. #67
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Yes, I think all the people in the situation need to be responsible for their own choices; and then legally people be held accountable for them to the limit of the law.

    So far, that seems to be how this is playing out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #68
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    The cameraman has the same amount of culpability as the girls who are physically hurting that woman. In fact, I would say he has more culpability. The women are in the middle of some creepy throwback to a berzerker rage, while he's calmly filming something on his phone.
    Do you know that for sure? I didnt watch it so it'll be obvious if the guys whooping or calling out support but like I said if you dont want to risk life or limb yourself acting as a good witness or making a record in some shape could be the best you could do.

    There was a debate a while back about someone who filmed a cop and could have provided the trigger in doing so for the cop to behave in a pretty unprofessional manner and legal action consequent to that, if someone deploys tech in that manner, (which I'm ambivalent about at best having seen too many "stunt" clips in which children are humiliating adults in the teaching, social services or health professions who act with any attempt to exercise legitimate authority in their lives) isnt it possible to deploy it in the face of a crime or something?

  9. #69
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by knight View Post
    you know, it just sounds like the person was asserting their right to use the restroom, she was a paying customer as well. no different then rosa parks asserting to be seated were she chose on the bus. In hindsight im sure many people agree that it was a petty thing to arrest rosa parks.
    I dont believe there's equivalence between Rosa Parks and this instance, although I do hear analogies or comparisons between black civil rights and transgender and homosexuality all the time.

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you know that for sure? I didnt watch it so it'll be obvious if the guys whooping or calling out support but like I said if you dont want to risk life or limb yourself acting as a good witness or making a record in some shape could be the best you could do.
    Yes, Lark. He actually was part of the problem -- taunting her on tape, taunting her on facebook, etc. If you had bothered to be responsible enough to look at the data of the footage OR read this thread in more detail before once again taking the predictable POV, you would have known this.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Similar Threads

  1. Attack on police in Philadelphia.
    By DiscoBiscuit in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-17-2016, 04:45 PM
  2. Teachers stage fake gun attack on kids
    By digesthisickness in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 12-29-2009, 04:35 PM
  3. On this day in history....
    By raz in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-07-2008, 11:06 PM
  4. Conservative attacks on health confirmed
    By rivercrow in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 09-11-2008, 03:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO