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  1. #51
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Yeah and that is the kind of mentality that is going to get the shit beaten out of you. Thats the difference between a victim and a martyr. If you are not a man, and you are not a woman, how the fuck do you propose to argue your right to be in a gender specified bathroom.

    I am not saying she doesn't have the right to use a public restroom. Only that the morality is grey here. Understand some people may be opposed to it, and technically, they have as much right as you do to the damn bathroom.

    It is not them who are making the decision to blur the lines, and as the person who is, I think it is your responsibility to take the higher road and leave the bathroom if it is making everyone uncomfortable.

    I hate people who shove their "Deal with my decisions or else," mentality in everyone else's face. I personally would leave the restroom if there was a man with a wig in it. You don't know what his sexual orientation is, or if he is simply a perve preying in women's bathrooms. Or if it is supposed to be some sort of disguise. Thinking to rob the place or something. I certainly wouldn't be caught with my pants down.

    Anyway I am not viewing this from a feelery perspective, but a fair one, that asks people to take some accountability for their life decisions. Both the trans-gender individual, the women, the bystanders.

    Also, for what it is worth, I absolutely would have stepped into the fight, and taken at least one of the women down. I would also have told the man to knock the other one out. That was a chicken shit and unfair fight.
    I agree with you. And, it goes for this and every other area of life. Live with your decisions. If you choose to be different, be different, but you get what you get. Don't cry, complain, and expect special treatment for it.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Yeah and that is the kind of mentality that is going to get the shit beaten out of you. Thats the difference between a victim and a martyr. If you are not a man, and you are not a woman, how the fuck do you propose to argue your right to be in a gender specified bathroom.

    I am not saying she doesn't have the right to use a public restroom. Only that the morality is grey here. Understand some people may be opposed to it, and technically, they have as much right as you do to the damn bathroom.

    It is not them who are making the decision to blur the lines, and as the person who is, I think it is your responsibility to take the higher road and leave the bathroom if it is making everyone uncomfortable.
    So the story here is, "As long as you 'look right', you can use my bathroom."

    Also, legally, I don't think you can be arrested for using one bathroom or another in most states/localities. Which is why some states are trying to make laws against transwomen, despite whether or not they're legally female.

    But in general, things are heading more in the other direction, and some of the transwomen you would complain about are legally female. So... sorry.

    I hate people who shove their "Deal with my decisions or else," mentality in everyone else's face. I personally would leave the restroom if there was a man with a wig in it. You don't know what his sexual orientation is, or if he is simply a perve preying in women's bathrooms. Or if it is supposed to be some sort of disguise. Thinking to rob the place or something. I certainly wouldn't be caught with my pants down.
    You should read the statistics and see how many actual crimes have occurred with a man wearing a dress and trying to use a woman's bathroom. It's simply not part of the psychology; rapists and molesters have a pathology where they're even typically MORE rigid about gender roles and the last thing they want to do is dress up like a woman in order to enact a crime, it would erode their already-feeble sense of masculinity.

    Anyway I am not viewing this from a feelery perspective, but a fair one, that asks people to take some accountability for their life decisions. Both the trans-gender individual, the women, the bystanders.
    Actually, I read your comment entirely as a feely, gut reaction, masked by rational-sounding arguments. Here is the keystone on which the rest hinges: "I personally would leave the restroom if there was a man with a wig in it." From what I can see, you're having a strong emotional reaction to it because you feel violated in the woman's bathroom in this sort of scenario; you identify someone who doesn't look right as a "man in a dress" rather than as a harmless transwoman (and, realistically, you can pretty much tell the difference between the two, they present differently); and and then you're surrounding it with intellectual-sounding arguments not actually based on the psychology of rapists, or crime statistics, or anything similar, in order to justify it.

    NOW.... before you offer a retort... I'll confess and say that I would potentially be bothered as well (which is hugely ironic, but it's just the way it is). I also don't go out with some transpeople in public, because I either think they dress inappropriately and/or I don't identify with them anymore. Also, when I transitioned, I used public bathrooms just fine because no one else even recognized the difference, but I was always very sensitive to people. At work, I confined myself to one bathroom (since everyone did know), and used the lock on the door, and they would too... until a few months later, at which point everyone had emotionally made the shift.

    I am willing to admit it's an emotional reaction on my part. Women's bathrooms are seen as a "sacred place" where only women can go, they're "safe havens." So a man in the woman's bathroom in this country is read as a huge intrusion.

    But then again, really.... She's using a freaking McDonald's, and she has to go, and she has to go SOMEWHERE. It's not like fast-food bathrooms are inviting enough and are used as lounges. You go, you wash your hands, you throw on makeup quick if necessary, and you get the hell out. This is also something transpeople are encouraged to do in any support group setting they attend, so as to minimize discomfort for others if there is an issue. If this country doesn't want transpeople in their bathrooms occasionally, then create family/non-gendered restrooms. Everything is so rigidly gender-identified here, it's crazy.

    It's also far more common for transpeople to be treated UNFAIRLY by their workplaces/society, than fairly. Forced to go to a public restroom off work property, or walk 10 minutes across a campus to use an isolated bathroom rather than anything convenient. We also did not ASK to be dealing with this or just on a whim say, "Hey, let's just do this crazy change, for kicks, and expect people to indulge us" ... which is something you are not taking into consideration. It's just part of dealing with our issue -- which now means yet ANOTHER problem, as if the psychological trauma, family issues, potential loss of work, depression, anxiety, and whatever else wasn't bad enough that we now have to be denied use of public restrooms because we're probably rapist "men in wigs." Nice.


    Also, for what it is worth, I absolutely would have stepped into the fight, and taken at least one of the women down. I would also have told the man to knock the other one out. That was a chicken shit and unfair fight.
    Then I can respect at least that much... and you probably could have knocked at least one of them on their ass. The mob thing was pathetic.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    I agree with you. And, it goes for this and every other area of life. Live with your decisions. If you choose to be different, be different, but you get what you get. Don't cry, complain, and expect special treatment for it.
    You guys totaly sound like SFJs.

    If you choose to be different don't cry or complain about it?

    Maybe people should be allowed to be who they want to be, within reason, as long they aren't hurting anybody.

    I don't think asking not to be beaten in a public place is "special treatment."

  4. #54
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Yeah and that is the kind of mentality that is going to get the shit beaten out of you. Thats the difference between a victim and a martyr. If you are not a man, and you are not a woman, how the fuck do you propose to argue your right to be in a gender specified bathroom.

    I am not saying she doesn't have the right to use a public restroom. Only that the morality is grey here. Understand some people may be opposed to it, and technically, they have as much right as you do to the damn bathroom.

    It is not them who are making the decision to blur the lines, and as the person who is, I think it is your responsibility to take the higher road and leave the bathroom if it is making everyone uncomfortable.

    I hate people who shove their "Deal with my decisions or else," mentality in everyone else's face. I personally would leave the restroom if there was a man with a wig in it. You don't know what his sexual orientation is, or if he is simply a perve preying in women's bathrooms. Or if it is supposed to be some sort of disguise. Thinking to rob the place or something. I certainly wouldn't be caught with my pants down.

    Anyway I am not viewing this from a feelery perspective, but a fair one, that asks people to take some accountability for their life decisions. Both the trans-gender individual, the women, the bystanders.

    Also, for what it is worth, I absolutely would have stepped into the fight, and taken at least one of the women down. I would also have told the man to knock the other one out. That was a chicken shit and unfair fight.
    its not a deal with my decision but more of a this is who I am kinda thing. these people are not trying to shove anything down anyones neck but just try to be who they are or feel inside.

    which is none of my concern, cause i have other real things to be concerned about.

  5. #55
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You guys totaly sound like SFJs.

    If you choose to be different don't cry or complain about it?

    Maybe people should be allowed to be who they want to be, within reason, as long they aren't hurting anybody.

    I don't think asking not to be beaten in a public place is "special treatment."
    You are assuming and implying that the person did nothing when the initial confrontation was missing in the tape? From what I saw, they were mouthing off to each other and they were all willing to fight at first. Just because you bite off more than you can chew doesn't make you a victim.

    And, yes. If you choose to be different don't cry or complain about it. It's that simple. If I choose to get tattoos all over my face, I don't get to complain that I can't get a job that deals face to face with customers. If you run your mouth, and get your butt beaten, don't complain about it.

    To me, the person looked like a woman. But, if you choose to become a woman and do like a man, expect to have problems and potential confrontation for the plethora of reasons listed in previous posts.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  6. #56
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    If people don't choose to conform (even if it's not in a way that harms anyone) they deserve whatever they get?

    You use an awful lot of Fe for someone who supposedly has inferior Fe.

    It's disturbing to me.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You guys totaly sound like SFJs.

    If you choose to be different don't cry or complain about it?

    Maybe people should be allowed to be who they want to be, within reason, as long they aren't hurting anybody.

    I don't think asking not to be beaten in a public place is "special treatment."
    I pretty much agree with you here, though the jab at SFJs was pretty mean. :ouch: If s/he can't go to either bathroom, where the hell's s/he going to pee/wash hir hands in? Because s/he has a non-binary experience of gender (or something of the sort, I'm no expert in LGBT matters), s/he's gotta walk all the way to someplace else while hir burger and fries get cold? That's kinda harsh.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Yeah and that is the kind of mentality that is going to get the shit beaten out of you. Thats the difference between a victim and a martyr. If you are not a man, and you are not a woman, how the fuck do you propose to argue your right to be in a gender specified bathroom.

    I am not saying she doesn't have the right to use a public restroom. Only that the morality is grey here. Understand some people may be opposed to it, and technically, they have as much right as you do to the damn bathroom.

    It is not them who are making the decision to blur the lines, and as the person who is, I think it is your responsibility to take the higher road and leave the bathroom if it is making everyone uncomfortable.

    I hate people who shove their "Deal with my decisions or else," mentality in everyone else's face. I personally would leave the restroom if there was a man with a wig in it. You don't know what his sexual orientation is, or if he is simply a perve preying in women's bathrooms. Or if it is supposed to be some sort of disguise. Thinking to rob the place or something. I certainly wouldn't be caught with my pants down.

    Anyway I am not viewing this from a feelery perspective, but a fair one, that asks people to take some accountability for their life decisions. Both the trans-gender individual, the women, the bystanders.

    Also, for what it is worth, I absolutely would have stepped into the fight, and taken at least one of the women down. I would also have told the man to knock the other one out. That was a chicken shit and unfair fight.
    Lot of good points here.

    Particularly like those about victims martyrs and accountability. Well made.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I pretty much agree with you here, though the jab at SFJs was pretty mean. :ouch: If s/he can't go to either bathroom, where the hell's s/he going to pee/wash hir hands in? Because s/he has a non-binary experience of gender (or something of the sort, I'm no expert in LGBT matters), s/he's gotta walk all the way to someplace else while hir burger and fries get cold? That's kinda harsh.
    Not all SFJs are like that, but it seems like an immature manfestation of Fe/Si.

  10. #60
    ThatGirl
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    To Jennifer.

    I stated that the morality line is blurred, and certainly it is not really a legal issue. I have used men's bathrooms at clubs when they were empty because the women's line was like an hour long. (Also I completely agree with women's being dirtier). The difference is, if I was asked to leave by a group of men, I would.

    Because this is a moral or emotional issue, you have to take into account both sides of the coin. It is true, men who appear to be women would raise much less alarm than a guy who very much looks like a guy. (I probably wouldn't think twice if I encountered you in the restroom, but I know you as being a woman and was shocked to find out otherwise).

    Because there are two sides to the coin there one emotionally driven position does not take precedence over another emotionally based decision. I have stated there are several reasons a girl could feel uncomfortable with a man in the bathroom, and those are legit, however improbable. Its about as improbable as finding an obviously transgender person in the bathroom int he first place. Which, frankly, I have never experienced.

    The problem with this is that the miscommunication cannot really be cleared up without engaging the individual. Since this less likely to happen, often it would devolve into snap judgments and emotionally based arguments.

    Once that occurs, the transgender individual is more aware of the ropes, has made the decisions, has more at stake, it is wise for them to simply excuse themselves from the restroom. Like I said, I wouldn't ask someone to leave, but without wanting to chat it up in the bathroom, I would probably leave myself.

    While they are not all like this, I have known some gay people to be very aggressive bordering on straight delusional in ways that I think they need to gain a little perspective. Case and point, a 6'2 large gay black man chasing down a 5'4 white girl yelling "I am not afraid to hit a woman!" To which I responded, "Like hell you will!" Just because you think you are a girl, doesn't suddenly make everything even.

    According to what was reported it sounded like this individual decided to take the stance, "I will not leave this bathroom. It is your problem, not mine." But that is just as disrespectful and non understanding as the females.

    This isn't really all the issue, I was just elaborating on why I stated the man/girl wasn't entirely void of responsibility. One of the things I always try to watch out for, is extreme events causing extreme sways in opinion. If someone is victimized, suddenly rationality is out the window, they become a saint and the other the devil. What I saw here, was an explosion of drama that very much could have been avoided by each party showing a little respect for the others position.

    Where I come from, there are family bathrooms, as well as womens and mens. I think this is where everything is heading. I have no problem with that if it helps to avoid unnecessary ugliness.

    Again, I am on the side of the victim. I just find the whole situation tragic in more ways than one.

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