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Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #61
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    5 words: Federal Reserve Act of 1913
    How so? How does this effect the Goldman-Sachs decision to defraud customers with bad investments to increase profit? To disregard long-term national financial security for short-term profit? This may have had some effect on the crash itself, I guess, but how does it effect the actions of Goldman-Sachs?

    And let's just toss in sweat shops, snake oil salesmen, Enron, people doing patently later made illegal (or in some cases illegal at the time) for gain. The government certainly isn't responsible there (it even outlawed some of these by doing the so-called evil thing and intervening), and these examples all work in place of the Goldman-Sachs example in my post. And I don't see how any of them are at all anti-Randian, even though they do hurt people or their livelihood and very unfairly, but would be justified by Rand because they turn a profit (and where the line between this and murder or rape for logical, profitable reasons appears, I have no idea, and I don't think she ever claimed one nor said, patently, that some things are flat wrong if they help you or if they don't). So even though you responded to the example I've used, the criticism I made of Rand's system as somewhat sociopathic and without real moral foundation stands.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  2. #62
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's the Marxists, that's not Marx, I challenge you to find support for vanguardism in Marx, he repeatedly stated that the emancipation of the workers had to be achieved by the workers themselves.

    I was in favour of political parties, although that was mainly in contrast to conspiracy or secret societies which had been the norm of all agitation prior to that, we're talking about a time before the open society or democracy, he was compelled to move all over Europe for what he published in his low and no circulation newspapers after all.
    Fair enough (though I could have sworn he conceded a vanguard to inform and temporarily hold power until certain details and means of the new system were clear, which should take as little time as possible, was in there someplace. I haven't read Marx in a while and may be confused, I guess)
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Perhaps I have a misunderstanding a socialism, but my understanding of it is that under a socialistic government I will be told to produce for others when I won't be receiving anything in equal value or return. If I ask why I am being told to produce for such a reason, I will be told that I will be doing it "for the common good" or some such idea and that if I don't, I'll be punished in some way.

    That's hardly an equal relationship.

    Again, that's my understanding of a socialistic government and I'll readily concede I could be wrong.
    If you were all doing that, then in fact you would all be getting something out of it. Socialism generally isn't meant to have one class of people strictly producing for another class of people, It's supposed to go across the board.

    Since socialism is a touchy concept, though, let's go with something far more conventional; Taxes. I've heard comparisons made between being a tax payer in this society and being a slave. The comparison inane from top to bottom, but the particular point I want to focus on now is that I have heard it said that the tax payer is obligated to pay with no benefit to him/her self. I say that's bullshit. I'd like to have the chance to teleport them to a civilization with no taxes, let them rough it out a bit, and then ask them if they still felt they get nothing out of paying them.

    I think I see a false dichotomy here. Your contribution to a great society, or a civil or legal institution, is not inherently a pure sacrifice on your part. It may actually be a significant or even necessary contribution for making your society one you'd want to bother living in.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Fair enough (though I could have sworn he conceded a vanguard to inform and temporarily hold power until certain details and means of the new system were clear, which should take as little time as possible, was in there someplace. I haven't read Marx in a while and may be confused, I guess)
    That's awesome, I''ll await you finding the detail. I dont believe you're right BTW.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    At the moment, no.

    From what I understand of her works, only a few aspects of society here in the states fits her description. Some of these social programs are funded through taxes which are taken from those of means and administered to those who can't. Some of those people take advantage of these programs and ultimately better themselves enough to where they don't need them anymore. Others however are content to take advantage and live off the works of others.

    However, those programs and such thing only have a marginal effect on my life. By and large, I live in a capitalistic society and have the freedoms to spend my money as I wish. I do pay taxes, but it's not enough to really inhibit my freedom in any meaningful way. I receive pay for the time that I work and I am paid based on what the market will provide for me. My understanding is that under a socialistic system, some central planner would determine a) How much I should work and b) what I should be paid for said work.

    Now, discussing whether or not taxing people or if having social programs run in such a way is right or moral isn't really what I was getting at and frankly isn't something I want to get into. Also, I sincerely hope you're not under the impression that I'm an Objectivist. I just said I liked some of her ideas.

    I guess I need to withdrawal my former question and instead ask you: What remedies or methods does socialism have to deal with "deadbeats" or as Rand would them "parasites"?

    To be clear: When I say "deadbeat" or "parasite" I am not referring to someone who has the will and the desire to work or contribute in someway but can't for one reason or another. I am referring to individuals who quite capable of contributing in someway but choose not too or instead choose to manipulate or cheat the system so that they don't have to work.
    Well let me put it back to you how are they dealt with at present?

    The reality is that in most discussions about socialism it is discussed, unfortunately by its proponents as much as its detractors sometimes, as a perfect society contrasted with imperfect capitalism, I dont believe it should be considered that way at all.

    Most of the answers about compulsion/coercion or deadbeats I would suspect will resemble what exists at present, if there is more compulsion and more deadbeats then its worse state than the status quo and hardly conforms to the first principles mentioned earlier.

    I'd even suggest that most of those answers will correspond to the most prevailent cultural norms of the society in which it emerges, so in Russia and other undemocratic nations like China "socialism" emerged as a pretty inflexible dictatorship similar to previous incarnations of government such as autocracy, in the UK socialist pressure produced the reformed welfare capitalism of the post-war period, in the US it was a different story altogether, it has a much more violent history, all the politicians possibly supporting welfare captialism from FDR's day were assasinated, I'm thinking of the Kennedys, when both MLK and Malcolm X got interested in social reform they got shot too.

  6. #66
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    I found her a very interesting, and I recommend watching her on videos on youtube

  7. #67
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    Watch Eric Fromm instead.

    Anyway, I've decided part of my purpose besides rescuing babies, fighting the army of darkness in the garden and keeping the world safe from the God damned vampyr threat is to try and remove all the poison spewed out into the world by Rand and her supporters.

    So I got to find some paper and pen to write some shitty novels about socialists now, they're going to put Jenaphors money were their mouths are and make the world a better place and stuff.

  8. #68
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-LpRSbbeA"]Ayn Rand on Donahue 1979 (1/5)[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWoap2bzi4"]Ayn Rand on Donahue 1979 (2/5)[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6jkQKAv13A"]Ayn Rand on Donahue 1979 (3/5)[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VzdkXm5Ies"]Ayn Rand on Donahue 1979 (4/5)[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNNQkBMiD4Y"]Ayn Rand on Donahue 1979 (5/5)[/YOUTUBE]

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's awesome, I''ll await you finding the detail. I dont believe you're right BTW.
    Yeah, I already admitted I'm probably wrong in the post. No need to be all dickish and sarcastic.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    fear not, those of us who don't read books, this movie will explain everything

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM"].[/YOUTUBE]

    demand Atlas Shrugged for your town
    Does this movie actually show people working? You know, like building those railroads? Or does it just romanticize rich people having dinner?

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