User Tag List

First 4567816 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 214

Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #51
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    Aeon
    Enneagram
    10w so
    Socionics
    LOL
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Sorry, tell me what you're basing this on because while this chimes perfectly with your views steming from the calculation debates of Mise and Hayek
    Its based on my own thoughts going back 5 years. von Mises's question was merely my way of saying that I was not the only one to be asking similar questions.

    Its not something which I could really associate with Marx, he didnt speculate about those things, in part because the language or discourse was quite different, it just reads a little like attacking Socrates, Plato and Aristotale for their ignorance of MBTI.
    MBTI is a bad example. But why not question them in light of new findings? Isn't that what defines historical periods of 'enlightenment' for example?

    I dont really follow this, Bolshevism was quite a long, long time after Marx, there's lots of literature which attacked Bolshevism from the get go as being abberant from Marx's theories.
    That was why I said it was ambiguous. Unfortunately, due to the nature of an ideological movement, primary sources are generally considered in preference to those who attempt to clarify such issues. Marxists still show a general resistance to new ideas today.

    I'd need further clarification of what you mean by that but Marx did think that capitalism was revolutionary, most of the communist manifesto is given over to attacks on other socialists who Marx felt didnt fully appreciate what capitalism was achieving and were too nostalgic for earlier times and traditions.
    Sorry, I realise there are different forms of 'capitalism' for different times...

  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    Its based on my own thoughts going back 5 years. von Mises's question was merely my way of saying that I was not the only one to be asking similar questions.
    Your thoughts going back 5 years? OK...

    MBTI is a bad example. But why not question them in light of new findings? Isn't that what defines historical periods of 'enlightenment' for example?
    It is an example of a set of theories with an accompanying jargon with which none of the philosophers I mentioned would have been acquainted, so it would be unfair to criticise their ignorance of it, its an example to contrast with your own point about Marx's ignorance of later economic theorising.

    That was why I said it was ambiguous. Unfortunately, due to the nature of an ideological movement, primary sources are generally considered in preference to those who attempt to clarify such issues. Marxists still show a general resistance to new ideas today.
    I'm unsure, I wouldnt generalise, maybe they do and maybe they dont I dont know. Do you know many marxists? I dont, do you read much of what passes for contemporary Marxism? I dont. I've read Marx and I've got a good understanding of history too. I dont generalise about writers or theories with whom I'm only acquainted through secondary sources, as I suspect you are acquainted with Marx or Marxism.

    Sorry, I realise there are different forms of 'capitalism' for different times...
    What do you mean by that? I meant that Marx felt that capitalism per se was a revolutionary force, more productive and more allocatively efficient than any percursor, that was his argument and the argument which he used when attacking socialists in the communist manifesto.

    Its bound to be challenging to hear that if you've only been acquainted with the idea that Marx is in favour of big government, essentially ignorant of market calculation etc. etc. etc.

    Marx's predictions of crisis and collapse where shared by virtually all other economists at the time, its what got economics the label "the dismal science" because they all predicted eventual busts, mounting to a crisis and collapse.

    I would argue he was only really interested in socialism or commun-ism (which was a word he coined following the popularity of the Paris Commune among lefties, it was a municipal uprising and democratic in character rather than anything else) because they suggested "there has to be an alternative" or "there will be a tommorrow" on the morrow of any crisis or collapse of the economy.

    Since he was an intellectual and critic more than anything else I'm sure that in a more contemporaneous scene he'd be as interested in Hayek or Mise or others suggesting alternatives post-crisis. Engels was more concerned about the conditions of the working classes per se.

  3. #53
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Dude that's socialism. A world of equals, no masters or slaves, no one dependent upon the compassion of others? Solidly socialist.

    But Rand takes it and puts it in the mouths of the masters and makes the subordinates the villains. Those lazy, grasping, ner do well, underlings. Which is class struggle too, although inverted.
    Perhaps I have a misunderstanding a socialism, but my understanding of it is that under a socialistic government I will be told to produce for others when I won't be receiving anything in equal value or return. If I ask why I am being told to produce for such a reason, I will be told that I will be doing it "for the common good" or some such idea and that if I don't, I'll be punished in some way.

    That's hardly an equal relationship.

    Again, that's my understanding of a socialistic government and I'll readily concede I could be wrong.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Perhaps I have a misunderstanding a socialism, but my understanding of it is that under a socialistic government I will be told to produce for others when I won't be receiving anything in equal value or return. If I ask why I am being told to produce for such a reason, I will be told that I will be doing it "for the common good" or some such idea and that if I don't, I'll be punished in some way.

    That's hardly an equal relationship.

    Again, that's my understanding of a socialistic government and I'll readily concede I could be wrong.
    So what does that tell you my friend?

  5. #55
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So what does that tell you my friend?
    *blinks*

    Ok, now I'm confused. What are you getting at?
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #56
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    *blinks*

    Ok, now I'm confused. What are you getting at?
    If its hardly an equal relationship, its hardly socialism.

  7. #57
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If its hardly an equal relationship, its hardly socialism.
    I see.

    So it's your contention then that the above scenario would never happen then, by definition, under a socialistic government? That I would never be compelled or coerced into doing something for someone else under an ill-defined "greater good" ?

    If so, then count me on board
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #58
    garbage
    Guest

    Default

    fear not, those of us who don't read books, this movie will explain everything

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM"].[/YOUTUBE]

    demand Atlas Shrugged for your town

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I see.

    So it's your contention then that the above scenario would never happen then, by definition, under a socialistic government? That I would never be compelled or coerced into doing something for someone else under an ill-defined "greater good" ?

    If so, then count me on board
    Let me put that back to you, are you compelled or coerced at the minute? How well, if you're going to use Rand's definition, the one which I associate with socialist first principles as I understand them, does the status quo correspond to them?

  10. #60
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Let me put that back to you, are you compelled or coerced at the minute?
    At the moment, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    How well, if you're going to use Rand's definition, the one which I associate with socialist first principles as I understand them, does the status quo correspond to them?
    From what I understand of her works, only a few aspects of society here in the states fits her description. Some of these social programs are funded through taxes which are taken from those of means and administered to those who can't. Some of those people take advantage of these programs and ultimately better themselves enough to where they don't need them anymore. Others however are content to take advantage and live off the works of others.

    However, those programs and such thing only have a marginal effect on my life. By and large, I live in a capitalistic society and have the freedoms to spend my money as I wish. I do pay taxes, but it's not enough to really inhibit my freedom in any meaningful way. I receive pay for the time that I work and I am paid based on what the market will provide for me. My understanding is that under a socialistic system, some central planner would determine a) How much I should work and b) what I should be paid for said work.

    Now, discussing whether or not taxing people or if having social programs run in such a way is right or moral isn't really what I was getting at and frankly isn't something I want to get into. Also, I sincerely hope you're not under the impression that I'm an Objectivist. I just said I liked some of her ideas.

    I guess I need to withdrawal my former question and instead ask you: What remedies or methods does socialism have to deal with "deadbeats" or as Rand would them "parasites"?

    To be clear: When I say "deadbeat" or "parasite" I am not referring to someone who has the will and the desire to work or contribute in someway but can't for one reason or another. I am referring to individuals who quite capable of contributing in someway but choose not too or instead choose to manipulate or cheat the system so that they don't have to work.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

Similar Threads

  1. Ayn Rand is undoubtedly an ENTJ not an INTJ
    By Harlow_Jem in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-10-2017, 12:55 AM
  2. Ayn Rand: The Ultimate INTJ
    By Into It in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 09:44 PM
  3. AYN RAND'S VAGINA SMOKING A BONG
    By Ginkgo in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-25-2010, 02:01 AM
  4. Ayn Rand fandom and type
    By Economica in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 11-10-2008, 01:45 AM
  5. [INTJ] The Fountainhead/Atlas Shrugged/Ayn Rand's Objectivism and INTJ's
    By Harlow_Jem in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 07-03-2008, 01:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO