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Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'll be honest with you and say that this sounds much more like Eric Fromm, the socialist, than Ayn Rand, the, well, I'm not even sure that capitalist covers it but anyway...

    Before reading Rand and considering her the only paragon of balanced individualism versus some kind of neurotic giving or self-sacrificing crippling persona I'd check out Fromm's Man For Himself (as in "every man for himself") and get a much more balanced picture.
    I would agree on this point, Fromm was an interesting guy, thoughts on his type?

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Ayn Rand FTW! listen to her for yourself. she's a genious




    You forgot to mention a racist

    [youtube="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uHSv1asFvU"]...[/youtube]

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    You forgot to mention a racist

    Because she referred to the Arabs as "primitive" for murdering their opponents, women, and children?

    Can you elaborate?

    Ayn Rand on racism
    The Virtue of Selfishness p. 126

    "Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

    Racism claims that the content of a man’s mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man’s convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman’s version of the doctrine of innate ideas—or of inherited knowledge—which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.

    Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man’s life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination."

    There are alot of things that can be said about Rands ideas, but racism isn't typically one of them, (ime).
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    I liked Anthem as a short read, couldn't finish The Fountainhead cause I thought it was kind of stupid. The fact she has to explain/prove her philosophical ideas through a fictional novel is kind of sad -you can "prove" anything with fictional stories, and she does it a lot less well than a lot of writers. It also had a lot of her just getting off writing about sexy boys

    I find her philosophy to be impotent because even if everyone does what they want to do, a lot of people enjoy being altruistic/compassionate, and enjoy being a cog in the machine so to speak, and it would sort of end up just being the way the world is right now, not some "utopia" where everyone becomes some maverick misanthropic genius. Somewhere one this forum I wrote a very lengthy, detailed explanation of why I think her philosophy sucks.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Please don't insult INTJs that way. Thanks.
    This INTJ is not insulted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    In a way, she is. Putting effort into something that you do not see any return on is directly in defiance of strict rational self-interest. There are zero social obligations. The only sin is something that loses you something, the only good something that gains you something. Ergo, murder or rape are not inherently evil, but are only evil if you get caught. If you do it and gain nothing from it, it is a neutral or a waste of time, and if you gain something it was good. Helping the downtrodden or acting with altruism costs time and/or money, and using your own resources like that without recouping something in return is really only logical evil in this ideology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    This is exactly what is wrong with her logic. "What is good for me" could involve rape, child molestation, burning down people's houses, murdering, pillaging, et al.
    The fallacy in these arguments is the idea that acting in one's own self interest admits any course of action at all, however cruel or destructive. What would prevent such choices, one might ask? The answers are found within Rand's philosophy itself. First, Rand holds that no one has the right to initiate force or violence on another, or to subjugate or compel the service of another, since that would interfere with THEIR right to act in their own self interest. This alone would disallow murder, arson, rape, and many of the destructive acts against persons and property that are illegal today. Second, the determination of what is in one's own self interest ("what is good for me") must be based upon reason, not emotion, compulsion, or passing whim. One might, for instance, "feel like" squandering one's earnings on drugs or gambling, but that is unlikely to be truly in one's own interest. (It amazes me how often people act against their own self interest, and not in any altruistic sense, more through stupidity, laziness, and shortsightedness.)

    One should also take a closer look at what we call "altruism". Is any act really altruistic? Does one not commit an altruistic act because one believes it to be right, because it is aligned with and promotes one's own values and priorities? If it is not, then the motivations are probably suspect. Altruism as the service of others at the expense of, or to the exclusion of, one's own interests may be "evil" in Rand's estimation, but committing one's resources to the promotion of one's vision for the world is very much in its spirit.

    The following quotes show how the emphasis on the individual cuts both ways:

    When man learns to understand and control his own behavior as well as he is learning to understand and control the behavior of crop plants and domestic animals, he may be justified in believing that he has become civilized.

    If one doesn't respect oneself one can have neither love nor respect for others.

    A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.

    Show me your achievement -- and the knowledge will give me courage for mine.


    Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Her flaw was over generalization due to not having an underlying categorical model and in judging what she saw: Fe and Ti cognitive mechanics, on her own Te and Fi scales thus misunderstanding it terribly and creating a totally fucked up system in which altruism appears as "evil" because she could not understand the mindset of the Fe folks she was observing-it was just too different from her own. Tert Fi fail.
    Her flaw was overestimating people's capacity and willingness to apply reason to their lives.

    My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

    The next two speak clearly to the ongoing deterioration of individual liberty and privacy:

    Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.

    The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.


    Finally, a quote I just like:

    Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received -- hatred. The great creators -- the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors -- stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The first airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #36
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    My understanding is that Objectivism does not actually denounce compassion and caring for others. Rand clearly asserted that being kind to people you like is not altruism. Altruism is when you are "morally" compelled to put the interests of a person with whom you have no investment in, ahead of your own. This is what she considers "evil". That seems like a very sensible position to me. Is the opposite position even logically defensible?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    You forgot to mention a racist

    [youtube="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uHSv1asFvU"]...[/youtube]
    she's not racist at all. she has contempt for the arabian government because they oppress free speach and civil liberties... and she's right to be. it has nothing to do with being an arab and everything to do with corrupt, dispacable government with no respect for human life. Ayn Rand is possibly the least racist person I've ever heard of
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Because she referred to the Arabs as "primitive" for murdering their opponents, women, and children?

    Can you elaborate?

    Ayn Rand on racism
    The Virtue of Selfishness p. 126

    "Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

    Racism claims that the content of a man’s mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man’s convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman’s version of the doctrine of innate ideas—or of inherited knowledge—which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.

    Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man’s life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination."

    There are alot of things that can be said about Rands ideas, but racism isn't typically one of them, (ime).
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I liked the idea of two people treating each other as traders, both equals seeking to trade skills/time/whatever and refusing to be either a master or a slave.
    Of course, once you know how rare informational symmetry is in the real marketplace...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    Of course, once you know how rare informational symmetry is in the real marketplace...
    could you elaborate your point, there are about 5 things I could think of you meaning by this
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